• OS
  • Win10 finally caught up to me, and I might be losing my career because of it

Seagull I've tested a few different windows operating systems and specific versions and never found the dithering Behaviour to be different in a way I could quantify

I wasn't talking about quantifying any motion/noise/differences in a single video signal, moreso attempting to quantify the differences between setup "A" and setup "B".

ensete

Did you try old versions of W10? Because if you are fine with them you can use the W10 2015 LTSC, W10 2016 LTSC or W10 2018 LTSC. With these versions, you will receive only the security patch and nothing else so you should be fine. 🙂

Another option could be to try W11 and also new GPU AMD and Nvidia.

Last chance, if you live in the US you can try the neurolens: https://www.neurolenses.com/

Wow, didn't expect this level of response! I'll answer the questions all there

One suggestion I can make, I don't use the same settings in 10 as I do with 7, so try putting your card in YCbCr mode instead of RGB in 10.

I have an nVideo GT420 video card, it's identical hardware to the one in my Win7 machine. I also installed the identical video driver version, and if I look in the advanced settings it seems to be in RGB mode already, with 32 bi color depth.

One thing that seems to slightly help was under the custom resolution settings you could set the polarity to positive or negative for the horizontal and vertical display, setting both to negative seems to have helped a little. Adjusting colors, contrast, brightness, hue, digital vibrancy, and every other setting either made the issue worse or made no difference.

 Maybe try the laptop noted in the other thread, however I understand that trying to convince a corporate IT dept you need a gaming laptop to do your job won't necessarily go down well.

I don't think they would go for that, it is a very locked down corporate environment and even then I have doubts it would do anything. I am nearly 100% sure that the issue is the Windows 10 desktop rendering engine and nothing to do with hardware.

What happens when you cover one eye and look at the screen? Is it the same? You have to look for a while, so you really can tell if it’s different. I have been in a similar situation like you so i know the felling, it sucks big time. Training with one eye covered was the solution for me. If it worked for me, it may work for you.

I haven't tried it can you provide more details?

Could you run Win10 with the generic video driver ie no accelleration?

I have tried no driver, an identical driver to my Win7 machine, and the latest driver. All acted identically in regards to my system

Can you try Linux?

IT is looking into this option for me right now, it may be something to try

Maybe an e-paper screen?

I've never tried one I could look into it

Can you offset some of your work onto your windows 7 laptop without them knowing?

Unfortunately security is very tight in my job, and everything is locked down on the machine. You can't connect it to your local network and share files, the USB ports are all disabled, file sharing websites are blocked, so it's not feasible in any way I can see to do my work on Win7 and then push it over to the Win10 machine.

If you do lose your job, have you considered freelancing from your win 7 laptop.

I don't really have any skills worthwhile in the freelancing department

Lastly maybe mowing lawns, ubering, buying a food truck.

I'm to old and broken down to get into physical labor at this point in my life.

Taking out a loan and purchasing an established business with guaranteed income?

I'm looking into it but honestly I don't want to be an entrepreneur and everyone I know who went into business and didn't have a passion for it all went bust.

Is an e-ink display an option?

I could use any monitor I want ,I might see about checking out an e-ink display

Have you tried this regedit to disable DWM?

I have not, I will be firing up my VM right after this post and giving it a try

I can (probably) explain their reasoning to you.

I understand their point of view, I have worked in technology my entire career. I just disagree with it. To me, being more concerned with the suffering of an employee than meeting an IT policy is basic human dignity.

What I'd probably do if i was in your position and with the hardware I have access to, is do some experimentation with lossless capture between a "known good" setup and a "bad" setup while keeping as many variables as the same and comparing differences in the signal between the two.

I've done that with hardware. Both my Win 7 machine have identical monitors, identical video cards, identical drivers, even Identical cables, and they both sit about 3 feet apart from each other in the same room. Win7 = perfect, Win10 = pain. So it has to be an OS level software issue between the two

Back to the matter at hand, I am having success desensitizing myself to migraine triggering devices. Gone from 5seconds of use of a smartphone to 60seconds now with only minor discomfort following.

Can you share your method?

Did you try old versions of W10? Because if you are fine with them you can use the W10 2015 LTSC, W10 2016 LTSC or W10 2018 LTSC. With these versions, you will receive only the security patch and nothing else so you should be fine

I have to use the version work will give me. At home or on any personal device I will never install Windows 10, ever, so it's not a concern there.

Last chance, if you live in the US you can try the neurolens: https://www.neurolenses.com/

I'll check it out

Thanks for all the support everyone, keep the dialogue going!

    I really identify with your situation and sometimes I wish there was a name for this, like a disease, so we could have help from the state and some investigation going. It's awful what is happening to us, really is.

    I haven't found a computer that I can use since my old one, a laptop with 13 years, just stop working for various reasons. I've tried different settings, software and hardware to no good results even if some stuff is better than others. What I found most useful was the dasung paperlike e-ink monitor and I've been writing with it connected to a windows 10 laptop. when I need to Check something with color I turn on the laptop screen, see it for a couple minutes and then return to the dasung monitor. it's expensive but they are the only company in the world doing it…

    I also tried cover one eye, in the first hour seemed to help but then I go eye strain and headaches all the same.

    I found that also helps me to have the monitor really far away or connected to an old crt TV which is not good for writing but only for video calls or watching duff.

    Windows 11 is coming do you guys think it will be better or worse?

    at some point someone who works at these companies will have the same problem has us, no? and point to their attention that something is not OK. I find people always complaining of eye strain and headaches much more in the last couple of years…

    tech should become better not worse, I really don't get it.

    Also I've been using a typewriter just to do drafts of texts and then do the final edit on the computer and I must tell you what a relief… it's like not having anything distracting you from you thought process. you write and then it appears on paper, it's there. I know it's not a viable option for office work now a days but at least for drafts and sketchs it works well, and then you can scan it and Send it also ahah. (new dorm of email?, just kidding).

    hope you find a solution, all the best

      ensete I don't think they would go for that, it is a very locked down corporate environment and even then I have doubts it would do anything. I am nearly 100% sure that the issue is the Windows 10 desktop rendering engine and nothing to do with hardware.

      Compared to running end of life software on older hardware, it's not a gaping security hole anymore, so they might be willing to entertain it.

      My working theory at this point, is that this issue could potentially manifest differently with different hardware. But I don't know that for certain, which brings me to my next point.

      ensete I've done that with hardware. Both my Win 7 machine have identical monitors, identical video cards, identical drivers, even Identical cables, and they both sit about 3 feet apart from each other in the same room. Win7 = perfect, Win10 = pain. So it has to be an OS level software issue between the two

      That's not quite what I was referring to. It's easy enough to setup two computers with identical hardware and OS and use them, what I proposed involves using an external video capture device to capture the image between both systems, and use special software to compare differences in the video signal between both systems.

      As long as this manifests with a GPU display output (DVI, DisplayPort, HDMI, et al) and not a laptop display (which is much more difficult to work with), the above applies.

      As I said earlier.

      [This] isn't rocket science and there HAS to be something different causing issues here between two systems displaying otherwise "identical" content.

      ensete I understand their point of view, I have worked in technology my entire career. I just disagree with it. To me, being more concerned with the suffering of an employee than meeting an IT policy is basic human dignity.

      Even if you agree with that reasoning (and I understand the rationale on both sides), even ignoring it and merely chugging along with old technology is just "buying time" in today's day and age of IT work.

      Someone else here (Not putting them on the spot) with similar issues said that their company had some sort of enterprise support plan with Microsoft that overrides the normal maze of "consumer level" customer service. Don't know if they got anywhere with it though.

      We need to have real R&D here, so we can point and say to engineers at "tech companies" and such: "We've determined that the issue in question relates to LCD inversion caused by new rendering patterns as part of the display pipeline as part of OS level rendering after this build" (Okay, that was just an example I made up). My point is, if there's going to be anything to get us "out of here" it's some empirical R&D.

        ensete I am nearly 100% sure that the issue is the Windows 10 desktop rendering engine and nothing to do with hardware.

        A few months ago I set up a fresh W10 install on my known good machine for testing. Same laptop/ditherig running/same driver version. W10 definitely introduces a level of strain. It didn't seem as bad as say an Apple PC, but regardless it was uncomfortable after a short period.

        C_c I haven't found a computer that I can use since my old one, a laptop with 13 years, just stop working for various reasons.

        Have you considered buying the same model used from eBay etc?

        C_c Windows 11 is coming do you guys think it will be better or worse?

        I think it will be no different to the Vista/7 update. Same OS underneath, fresh coat of paint on top (or not 😆 )

        JTL We need to have real R&D here, so we can point and say to engineers at "tech companies" and such: "We've determined that the issue in question relates to LCD inversion caused by new rendering patterns as part of the display pipeline as part of OS level rendering after this build" (Okay, that was just an example I made up). My point is, if there's going to be anything to get us "out of here" it's some empirical R&D.

        One approach I've thought about for some time is PCoIP. I have had strain with remote services such as Shadow PC, which turned my good machine into really bad within minutes, couldn't quite believe it tbh.

        Anyways, AFAIK when you are viewing a remote machine using PCoIP, you are seeing a pixel perfect representation of that machine, warts and all. Nothing is redrawn on the client side per se, it transmits the pixel data itself to the client. This also explains why dithering fixes from Amulet exist as it saves bandwidth when dithering is off (less pixel information being sent as there are less pixel changes).

        It should be possible to roll your own VMWare server and then set up various host systems (known good device, upgraded known good device, bad device etc) and compare the PCoIP information, which I believe should allow you to identify if temporal dithering is being used, or at the very least to measure if there are differences in pixel activity between OS/Drivers.

        A PCoIP log viewer has been created by one of the VMWare developers, this link is a bit old but it shows some basic usage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2OAdriDCms

        One of the graphs is named 'PCoIP Encoder Stats - Changed Pixels' which sounds promising.

        He has a website here (not-secure) http://mindfluxinc.net/ which should provide a link to the software or to contact the author.

        This doesn't fix issues with the GPU outputs or Monitor pixel inversion however IMO would provide hard data that the software itself is now making changes to the pixels that it never used to do, which is detrimental for us.

        @ensete

        If you think that disabling DWM theme and using classic mode will help you, I maybe have a possible solution for you.

        Someone figured out how to make a "true" classic theme working and usable in windows 10 and made a program to simplify things:

        https://winclassic.boards.net/thread/456/reversibly-enable-disable-classic-simple

        Keep in mind that in requires .NET 5 redist and might or might not completely disable DWM

          Look at my blog here heteroforie.webnode.cz and give it a shot. Neurolens is similar in dealing with these issues. Nothing there is a perfect solution, but it works to a large degree, which is better than nothing.

          zlhr If you think that disabling DWM theme and using classic mode will help you, I maybe have a possible solution for you.

          Someone figured out how to make a "true" classic theme working and usable in windows 10 and made a program to simplify things:

          https://winclassic.boards.net/thread/456/reversibly-enable-disable-classic-simple

          Keep in mind that in requires .NET 5 redist and might or might not completely disable DWM

          I'm a long time member of that board but with a different username 🙂

          There are 2 methods to get "classic mode" on Win 10, one is winlogin based which doesn't help as it retains DWM, the other is to eliminates DWM but this results in an unstable system

          I am trying the Dasung 13.3 inch einkmonitor right now, it's only been an hour or so but it seems decent. It is annoying to use being so small and grayscale, they have a 23 inch version releasing this year though. I'm going to give it a week. I am also going to try a new BenQ monitor any specific model recommendations?

          So I bought a Dasung e-ink monitor, the 13.3 inch one, off Amazon and hooked it up. It took some fiddling but I got the display working. It isn't helping and I am still getting eye strain and facial muscle pain

          So that rules out backlight (since the screen has no backlight), refresh rate (since the screen has no refresh rate) colors (since the screen has no colors). But SOMETHING about the Windows 10 desktop compositor that is independent of all those things is still triggering me. When I turn the display off and it puts the product logo on the screen, the screen gives me no problems. Which 100% proves it is Windows 10 itself causing the issue and not any hardware. So this is going back to Amazon

          I ordered a new desktop video card, a BenQ GW2480T 24 inch Monitor, and a Display Port cable. This will give me a new graphics card with Display Port out and a direct Display Port run all the way to the screen. If that doesn't work I will gradually move up the BenQ product line.

          I am thinking it could be a super long shot that I am using a very old Pre Win10 ever being released video card and maybe it is doing something weird. But all evidence seems to point to the issue being software based with the operating system.

            ensete So that rules out backlight (since the screen has no backlight), refresh rate (since the screen has no refresh rate) colors (since the screen has no colors). But SOMETHING about the Windows 10 desktop compositor that is independent of all those things is still triggering me. When I turn the display off and it puts the product logo on the screen, the screen gives me no problems. Which 100% proves it is Windows 10 itself causing the issue and not any hardware. So this is going back to Amazon

            You may also want to try the e-ink display on a known good setup, just as another datapoint. Or any Linux distribution. Or maybe your eyes are still strained from the bad setup? I am sorry to hear this didn't work out for you.

            Another option could be a StarTech video card, which is an external USB Graphics card. They told me they don't use dithering, but I was not confident in their response. I realize your issue isn't the graphics card, and is Windows 10, but might be worth a try.

              ryans

              I actually tried one of those USB video cards in the past and it didn't do anything unfortunately

              However, I did try something suggested here and got a "result", I put an eyepatch over my right eye, and have been using my setup, and so far (it's only been 30 min or so) I haven't had symptoms. I have been hypothesizing recently based on my experience that my issue seems to be binocular focusing related. The muscle pain I am feeling feels like the pain I get when I have an improper prescription contact lens or glasses, and it feels like the muscles in my head are trying to "move" my eye to compensate, resulting in those muscles tightening up which then impinges nerves and causes migraine (according to my nuerologist)

              I'm going to continue wearing an eyepatch when using that system for a couple hours, and if it holds up, that would seem to at least indicate a root cause to the problem: Somehow the way the Windows 10 desktop compositor is rendering the image, regardless of video card or monitor, is causing my eyes to struggle to maintain a binocular balance between the two eyes, and the compensation of that is what is causing my pain. I have no idea how that would be fixed, but at least it is a plausible hypothesis to start from.

              I'm going to start a new thread to see if other folks have had the same issue

              ensete So I bought a Dasung e-ink monitor, the 13.3 inch one, off Amazon and hooked it up. It took some fiddling but I got the display working. It isn't helping and I am still getting eye strain and facial muscle pain

              So that rules out backlight (since the screen has no backlight), refresh rate (since the screen has no refresh rate)

              I have the little Dasung Not eReader that I sometimes use as an external monitor- with my work 2015 MacBook Air that has an unusable screen. The Dasung screen is sometimes OK for me and sometimes is as bad or worse than the LED screen. The Dasung has a 45 Hz refresh rate and sometimes the flicker introduced by the software/operating system is quite visible on the Dasung and bothers my head. I haven’t used it with Windows yet, but with the Mac, Word and Excel are OK as long as I don’t highlight things too much - the highlighting shimmers on the Dasung - I assume Apple uses temporal dithering to create the highlight effect. Having a night mode filter on also creates flickering shimmer all over the screen. Some websites are OK, some are very irritating. Videos can be very bad. Scrolling a lot is bad for me regardless of the program - I think because of the flicker effect as the scrolling happens. The Dasung screen modes that have less fine grayscale detail seem a bit more tolerable than the more nuanced mode. So I use the Dasung most of the time now to do text-based tasks and am limiting how much graphics, web, and editing work I do. I’m glad I have the Dasung overall, but it definitely doesn’t eliminate screen flicker in many circumstances and sometimes it amplifies the visibility of the flicker.

                jen

                A video of the flickering (temporal dithering) on your Mac could be a useful investigation for us.

                • jen replied to this.

                  Big (bad) news also for me.. my company was acquired by Accenture today so I will not more able to use W10 1809 and probably they will also change my old computer!
                  I am really sad, I will try to buy an OLED notebook and let's see if I can use it with the last version of W10!

                  @"ensete"

                  Sorry to hear about your situation. If all else fails, you might want to try buying a portable analogue projector, and use that as your main display. Get a small portable white screen (if your office desk is not facing a blank wall), connect the projector via vga on your work pc/laptop, and look at the white screen as your main display. Whatever flickering, dithering and that elusive unknown cause of eye strain will likely stay on the LED display, but you are not looking at the LED display, you are looking at a blank wall or a small white screen that the projector is projecting the desktop from your pc/laptop. Might be worth a try. Unfortunately, people in our situation need to invest (to try out new laptop, parts etc) and do many trial and errors to see what works. Hope this works for you.

                    ryans

                    Here’s a couple videos of the Dasung Not eReader- filmed at normal speed. Hopefully the video is ok enough quality - it’s filmed with just sunlight illuminating the screen and the video itself isn’t the sharpest because of the moderate light level, but maybe you can get the idea. There’s a close up in the last video that shows the issue most clearly. There can be flicker that tracks with the cursor - I’d guess that’s a Dasung thing rather than a Mac thing, but I’m not sure. Notice the extra flicker when I copy a selected area in Excel- the pixels visibly dance no matter what the screen settings are. In other applications like Photoshop or Preview, just selecting part of an image makes the pixels dance, both inside and near the selected area. If I keep Nightshift off, the pixels look stable in most applications if I don’t start selecting and copying things. Nightshift adds extra flicker on the Dasung.

                    Image mode III, Nightshift off

                    Image mode III, Nightshift on

                    Image mode II, Nightshift off

                      jen

                      Thanks for posting these. Especially in the sharp video in the last video you posted, I do see a "shimmering".

                      With your Dasung -- wondering if you've tried Windows with ditherig (to disable dithering)? Or any Linux distro?

                      • jen replied to this.

                        ryans

                        No, I haven’t tried anything with Windows yet. I did recently get a PC gaming laptop and a CCFL monitor that I’m very slowly working on optimizing. When I have time to try things with the Dasung and Windows, I’ll definitely report back 🙂

                        dev