deepflame Yeah I am more and more convinced the primary root cause is software, and the reason some older hardware is more commonly ok for us is because it just isn't capable of implementing the dithering/whatever motion or visual trickery instructions. There is not ANY modern SW/HW combo I can use without trouble and I believe this is because the SW is asking for more and the HW is capable of giving it...whereas in some older combos either they aren't trying to do as much, or cannot, or both. I don't have enough modern hardware to set up a lab and test old SW on new HW to make comparisions but that would validate this. I don't WANT this to be true because it means the future is bleak since things will just get more "fancy" SW and HW wise and we will be like people trying to avoid using electricity when the rest of the world has moved on...but I believe this is the base problem.

But once again until someone can ID and shut off dithering we are just spinning our wheels. If it's not that then it's something else we haven't discovered yet...and I would bet everything there IS a primary root cause that most people are affected by, and all the other stuff like LED/CCFL, PWM, Fonts etc are just red herrings or things that make the root problem more noticable when you are already fatigued because of said root cause.

I have proposed paying someone for this a few times but nobody seems interested. JTL is the best "in house" hope but its clear he cannot dedicate enough time to this and without it being someone's primary focus it's going to get dragged at for years more. I'd be interested in hearing ideas of WHO to approach for work on this and the best crowdfunding route etc. I don't know about everyone else but I need a solution now, not in years. I am losing my last chances in life because of this bullshit and there is no way industry is going to solve it for us.

    I've been actually getting the same conclusions - it must be software, not hardware that's broken. I don't believe every single modern laptop has bad screen - there must be some variation in quality, ie. there would exist LED / IPS screens that are ok, but so far I haven't found one on 2017/2018 notebook. With other components you can find devices with great keyboards, touchpads, and I bet the screens that have vivid colors, great contrast, etc. are good on their own, but the source material they are fed with makes them behave bad. Of course there might be screens that do dither on their own, etc., but I don' think that it's done on every device unless it's a technology limitation.

    Funny thing is - the screen on my Macbook Pro that used to be unbearable doesn't seem to cause the same issues to me now, it's near 100% fine although I can see it's flaws, they just don't affect me anymore. However I get minor (mild harshness) or major (head pressure, nausea) with every other LED/IPS screen I check for 5-10 minutes.

    This whole topic is a complete maze, and I wouldn't be surprised if one day it will get solved all of a sudden when one of OS/graphic drivers manufacturers makes a silent change in their code without informing anyone.

    • hpst replied to this.

      andc Are you saying the MBP was bad from the beginning but is now ok? What year and specs and can you correlate that change with OS updates or more "getting used to it"? I don't use Mac anymore but I am sure @JTL and the people who do would like to hear details. I have seen 3-5 people over the years post "nevermind strain went away" in various places...but usually it's the opposite and usually OS updates trigger it rather than relieve.

        I've been recently using it with W10 installed instead of MacOS. It's 1803 version as far as I remember. I don't use it for long periods, but half a year ago it caused instant issues, now I can use it almost forgetting about the strain - it seems to cause just a standard tiredness, I use it on higher brightness levels however, so no major dithering should be happening (I used this exact notebook in my dithering tests in the other thread, so flicker definitely is there).
        I would have to run it for several hours a day for 2 weeks to make sure that it's perfectly fine, but other devices tend to be painful after a few minutes if you know what signs to look for (ie. tension of eye muscles, building up head-pressure, etc.)

        I assume that either somehow I got used to it (my eyes understand how to focus on this thing better) or something changed in drivers / OS that makes it more bearable . My problem could as well have evolved to something different - for example I didn't get headaches / pressure before, recently I was able to observe it on 3 separate devices (2 of them were high resolution glass screens - 3200x1800, another one was full HD matte), so maybe now I react to different set of devices than before (as I said - it's a maze 🙂 ).

        Actually I think one more thing has changed - I don't use Dell IPS monitor anymore as it started resulting in eye strain from some point. It seems to me that using single device can trigger issues on others which I observed with my Macbook and Ipad before, where resignig from Macbook caused IPad to be fine. Maybe this Dell was making me more prone to Macbook issues, who knows ...

          2 months later

          andc "I use it on higher brightness levels however"

          Isn't to bright for you? Dont hurt your eyes?

            It didn't cause issues then, but I wasn't using it for very long time, max. 2h per session, so maybe longer exposition would trigger something. Anyway, I remember a year ago when I used it the strain appeared after several minutes, so something's probably changed - either in me, or in this machine 🙂

            a month later

            Hi, I recently discovered this site after, literally, decades of headache and migranes from using PCs.
            The ONLY device that I have ever been able to use without getting headaches, and the device I am using now, is an Ipad Mini 4 with retina display. ALL other ipads, regardless of model/IOS version, give me headaches as do virtually all PC screens. This has been and still is an incredibly frustrating and expensive journey but i have never given up hope that one day i will find a computer that I can use without headaches.
            After extensive research I bought an Ipad Air 2 as it has the same laminated anti reflective display as an Ipad mini and runs the same IOS version but, guess what, instant headache! So it now joins the pile of unusable laptops, PC`s and tablets in my study that I cannot use.
            Can anybody shed light on what is different on an Ipad air 2 display vs an Ipad mini given that they both run the same IOS version, both have the same resolution displays (one obviously bigger than the other) and both have the same antireflective laminated screen?
            I have played around with reduce motion, contrast etc to no effect.

              7 days later

              tonyshan Can anybody shed light on what is different on an Ipad air 2 display vs an Ipad mini given that they both run the same IOS version, both have the same resolution displays (one obviously bigger than the other) and both have the same antireflective laminated screen?

              Different screen manufacturers (so different display characteristics) and different GPU chipsets can have a major impact on what you see and the problems you can encounter. Even within single product runs eg laptops you might find different manufacturers supplying panels with different impacts on folks like us.

              Sadly no one here is able to pinpoint exactly what the problems are caused by, and different people also experience different symptoms.

                5 months later

                iPad mini 5 (2019) - Headache, eyestrain, pain in muscles around eye, spreading to jaw and cheek within a couple minutes of use. Very noisy patterns on the screen, similar to what I saw on the iPhone 8 Plus.

                I bought this cause I'm trying to get a scan and TTS solution up and running since I'm return to school in September and can't read even paper for an extended period of time (not long enough to study), but this has to go back. Unfortunately not okay to look at for even a short time.

                • KM likes this.
                3 years later

                I have an ipad air 2 with ios 13.1 and zero issue.
                I want to update to the last ios 13 version, but iTunes whant to update it to the last ios version 15.6.1. Do you think is it possible?

                • annv replied to this.

                  Lauda89 AFAIK, Apple stops "signing" (allowing to install) previous iOS versions some time after the new release. For example, as of now it is impossible to install even iOS 15.5: https://www.macrumors.com/2022/07/28/apple-stops-signing-ios-15-5/ They are forcing the latest version on everyone.

                  So, I think it is impossible to upgrade to iOS 13.6 anymore.

                  I have two devices with 15.6.1 that I'm fine with (iPhone SE 1st gen and iPad 6th gen), but I'm less sensitive than many people on this forum. With some iOS 15.x.x, people started feeling a strain. I experienced it only for a short time and with one or two versions.

                  I would be very cautious upgrading and would maybe do a back-up with iMazing or else (I haven't done it myself), or even not upgrade at all.

                  Personally, I've upgraded from iOS 12 to 15 over a couple of years, and there is nothing worthy, and even some poorly designed features added, like the App Library or Focus mode.

                    It might be possible to still do it if your starting point is an older version.. it has always been possible to update using a usb drive instead of a network connection.

                    4 months later

                    I am in the US on vacation and i want to buy a new ipad since mine (ipad air 2) is starting to be slow and they cost less here than in Italy.

                    After an hour of trying it at the apple store I came out destroyed (dizziness) and the only ones giving me "positive vibes" were ipad 9th and ipad pro 13.

                    Of the two I prefer the 13 but it is wasted for my use so I am tempted to give the 9th a try even though it still has the old design.

                    Does anyone have it in the forum? Or did anyone who had the air 2 manage to switch it for a recent ipad?

                    Small update: I bought the iPad 10th and it will go back to the apple store. If I only play Magic Arena it seems usable, but as soon as I start using safari, youtube etc.. I start having the usual dizziness issues.

                    Tomorrow I will take it back to the store and I can consider changing it to the 12.9 pro. But spending $1200 to surf the web, watch videos and play magic seems absurd to me.

                    I did ok with the iPad 8th gen running iOS 14. I haven’t tried newer versions. I also did ok with the iPad Pro 11 inch from 2018, but I don’t have as much screen time with it. I have had the most trouble with the recent iPad Airs for whatever reason.

                    Do you really need a tablet when many phones are 6.8" now?

                    dev