Sick with new LED backlit PC monitors, but not old- difference in backlighting?
- Edited
Alas, no sir. In the last 6 years I've managed to try about 30 (newer) monitors and none of them work for me. I did recently purchase the HP X27i on Aquila's recommendation and will be trying that next week, will post my experience here. I tried the BenQ TK700STi gaming projector a couple weeks ago and it caused the same problem for me- which is very interesting because it has no LEDs. It does flicker (240 Hz pixel shifting to do 4k, plus it's a DLP projector and the flashing sequential red/green/blue "painting" DLPs do in whites was very obvious), so I'm back to suspecting some kind of flicker (either in the backlight itself or in temporal dithering maybe) as my main problem. That also seems strange to me considering I've experienced an LED desk lamp that causes the same symptoms and an offensive monitor with the backlight on but with black screen still bothers me too. The screens I can use I can use for 12 hours a day without any issue whatsoever; but just minutes looking at the offensive devices affects my eyes for days. It's a weird puzzle I cannot seem to get to the bottom of. Let's all continue to share ideas.
I see… how about antiglare (matte) and hard coating screen? Is that also problem on eye strain?
Beacuse i had a laptop which screen features are 15.6 inc, antiglare, 300 nit, 5 ms response time, 60 hz, IPS panel. With this features, there was nothing with my eyes, even i spent many hours. However i unable to look on modern desktop monitor by long hours due to eye strain. I used Asus VG24Q1A and BenQ Zowie XL 2411k.
Gemsand I am ready to buy the X27i too, so let me know if it works for you
Now i am trying LG GR95QE OLED 240HZ + Nvidia 4070 and is not good. Dizziness and migraine. I should try to watch some videos via chromecast in order to undestand if it's the monitor the problem or the GPU/Software. I have an LG B8 OLED tv that is perfectly fine with the right source.
Fakir35 I personally have not found any correlation with screen coating and my symptoms. In general laptop screens tend to bother me less, but I haven't tested that many. Are you saying you use the Asus VG24Q1A without a problem?- I've tried the similar (but much older) Asus VG248QE and it was terrible for me. I recently traveled to another city just to view 30+ monitors on display and all the modern 24" 1080p high refresh rate monitors there seemed intolerable.
Lauda89 Thanks for the info on the LG GR95QE OLED. (And you must have a new build- the 4070 is quite new. ) In my case I never had worse eye pain than with a LG C8 OLED TV, driven by a PS5. It was terrible. I tried the recent 34" OLED Dell AW3423DW gaming monitor driven by a GTX 1080 and it was not usable (though not as immediately noticeable as the TV). Meanwhile, I seem to have no problems with any OLED handheld devices at all! I can't figure out the difference.
I'll get back to you on the X27i within a week!
Gemsand Keep in mind that my main problem is dizziness/migraine, not eye strain. I've used the PS5 for a couple of years without a problem, last game was horizon and now i am trying GOW and i can't play it more then 30 minutes.. So in my case, the problem seems to be related with the software mainly.
I've tried also a QD-OLED the Samsung G8 and it went back. The LG still bad but i've decided to keep it because i like the 27 2K more than 34", so i am hoping to find the right combination of hardware+software with the LG monitor and smile again!
Let's hope to hear good news from you! Good luck
I tried the HP X27i recommended by Aquila, but unfortunately it did NOT work for me- I could tell within 10 seconds it was causing that burning sensation in my retinas! I did give it a thorough shot thought, I played around with all the settings- it's a great monitor and I could get the color very stable looking. But after playing around for only 10 minutes I was relieved to put it back in the box and my eyes hurt for the rest of the day. Thank you for the suggestion Aquila! It looks like we have different issues.
I can not understand what is problem with monitors and eye comfort?
I'm also trying almost everything;
**Purchase and tried 3 panel (IPS,VA,TN)
*Switch connect cable (DP,HDMI)
*Set brightness,contrast,blue light filter and other thing etc…. Refresh rate… as well as using f.lux
*Set viewing angle,
*Change rooms lightening conditions
*Also switch settings from GPU.
Finally i'm gonna crazy. I dont get it i had no issues with my laptop and i have eye burning a lot since i bought modern monitor. I wish panel manufacturers should aware this. I'm also keep searching desperately, if i found i will post here.*
This sounds EXACTLY like me. Something universal seems to have changed across all types of screens. I have two old HP Elite Display E221i that I still use for work. Every modern monitor I've tried to change them with makes me feel sick almost immediately (hard to describe but something like motion sickness - foggy, headache, dizzy, and my body starts to feel very warm). I first noticed this when I upgraded to the iPhone X when it came out. I almost called 911 when I was setting it up because my symptoms were so severe (before I realized it was from the phone). Now I seem to get this feeling from monitors, laptops, many TV's, car screens etc. Old monitors I have no issues with. I use an Iphone SE 3 that I assume is still okay because it uses old screen technology.
I don't have a solution to any of this but you aren't alone.
- Edited
Thanks man. Yeah for me it feels like some kind of universal change across all types of screens. For me it doesn't seem to be related to type of input: if the screen is the offensive type, no matter the input, or even if any image is even being displayed on the screen, I can feel it almost immediately and it causes significant symptoms (whereas my 10 year old monitors I can use for 12 hours a day without a problem). I am determined to find at least one modern monitor I can use, I will keep up the search and let you know if I find anything. Meanwhile please do the same!
Also just one comment regarding my latest thinking on trying to identify a cause (after much experimentation): My main 10 year old monitor that I can use all day without any problem whatsoever uses a form of temporal dithering and PWM, and that has always made me discount flicker as being my main issue. However, after having a painful recent experience with a 4k pixel-shifting DLP projector that uses a lamp (no LEDs at all!) but does flicker (both in the 240 Hz pixel-shifting flicker and also in the noticeable red/green/blue "flicker" that DLP projectors generate), I'm wondering if newer LED backlights and even OLEDs might have some other kind of inherent imperceptible flicker. Also I've experienced an LED desk lamp that caused the same exact symptoms- so I'm wondering if maybe the LEDs themselves now pulse in some way that they didn't use to. I know RGB OLEDs pulse constantly to create color and OLED monitors and TVs are terribly painful for me. Maybe all modern monitor backlights pulse in some way, perhaps as a result of reduced power consumption or something.
Yeah I had assumed my initial issue was PWM because it first happened when I got the iPhone X and that seemed to be the consensus online. But then I realized I was having issues with newer iPads and the iPhone XR as well (not quite as bad but still not great).
I'm the same with you as I can literally stare at older monitors/old iPhones/iPads etc. for 12 hours straight with no symptoms at all. But same with you on an offensive screen I feel it immediately. I'm a photographer as well and all the new mirrorless cameras have electronic viewfinders which give me the same issues. Weirdly there seem to be some newish TV's that are OLED but don't make me sick. But I have no idea why. Unfortunately I think some of the symptoms might be getting worse because my body has learned to "expect" to get sick when looking at a new screen. I'm on an 8 year old laptop for travel right now because the same issue is happening with new laptop screens.
I'll definitely post a solution if I ever find one. It's depressing because so many things that I love (technology, photography, cars) all are being affected by this. I keep hoping that one day the technology will just switch overnight sort of how this all started to begin with.
- Edited
I had many monitors, the best so far are Xiaomi Mi Curved Gaming 34 and NEC E271n(There is also a more expensive better version EA271Q). Maybe check these.
Xiaomi 34 (I used the resolution 2560x1440, brightness 30, contrast 50, medium response time) I couldn't use the resolution 3440x1440 even 5 min.
https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/259c1bb0
NEC E271N (I use it now. Brightness 10, contrast 27, refresh rate 50Hz(more comfortable than 60hz for me))
https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/b7321328
*Lenovo G27QC-30 was also good, but he had 6bits+FRC.
https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/7e912d21
*Nec EA271Q https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/4c8c14d5
- Edited
Glad to be here, guys. Sharing your fate, can't use any modern LED displays as they are all equally intolerable and have the same noxious effect on me. I have switched 4 monitors in the past couple of years and it wasn't easy for me. I had to buy and sell them every time, some of you should know how tiresome that can be and I think this is pretty much the end of the line for me. Now I'm targetting a really old monitor, preferably CCFL-backlit one. Of course, I'd rather it was new and boxed and I would probably pay over $200 for one, but if I don't find one like that I will just have to settle for a used and cheaper one. C'est la vie.
The monitors I've tried:
- HP Z23i (IPS, 1080p, 60hz, PWM, 250cd/m2, 2013)
- ViewSonic VG2719 (IPS/ADS, 1080p, 75hz, flicker-free, 300cd/m2 2020)
- Asus MG248QR (TN+Film, 1080p, 144hz, flicker-free, 350cd/m2, 2016)
- NEC E221N (AH-IPS, 1080p, 60hz, flicker-free, 250cd/m2, 2017)
All of these are equally unbearable. I've tried everything, can't even bother writing the full report, because none of it really matters. It's positively something in the backlight or temporal dithering/FRC or whatever. I don't care to find out anymore, because whatever it is we can't fix it anyway. I just want a normal thing for Christ sake.
At first I thought it's an issue specific to IPS technology as a lot of people seem to complain about it, but it's not true. I believe the reason people tend to assume that is because at some point they move from their older TN CCFL- or early type LED-backlit panels to newer ones, which are mostly IPS these days, and naturally conclude it must be it. Wrong, and I have personally confirmed it. You may have noticed a TN monitor on my list. Believe it or not, I got it specifically to get rid of the eye-strain while sacrificing some of the advantages of IPS. Waste of time, folks. It was the same exact thing. Same. Exact. Thing.
The actual symptoms. In about 5-10 minutes I begin to feel some pressure in my eyes, like I can't relax them for a second and little by little my temple-side ocular muscles get strained more and more. Basically, the longer I look at it, the worse it gets. I'm pretty sure at some point my eyes would simply explode if I tried to soldier through it, which I never did, simply because it gets bad enough much sooner. I also get this tinkling sensation in my forehead, yawny and drowsy feeling as well as mild nausea.
The only displays that don't currently bother me is my laptop screen (HP ZBook 15 G2), which is probably one of the worst TN panels with regards to color and viewing angles, and a couple of really ancient CCFL-type 4:3 displays - LG Flatron L1952S and L1753TR. These don't give me any problems whatsoever, which lead me to conclude that I should be specifically looking for something old enough to be sure the problem isn't there. I think anything between 2008 and 2010 should be good. I got my eye on NEC MultiSync EA231WMI, an all-round decent IPS monitor, which did really well back in the day and if I ever get a chance it's going to be my ultimate purchase. I just have a hunch that all my problems will end right there. The only downside to it is that it's a little more power hungry, but I'd much rather it consumed more power than my eyes and sanity.
By the way, I do confirm that most of these displays are warm and kind of toxic to look at, it feels like there's just too much red and green in them, while blue seems to be consumed by reds and greens and appear somewhat indistinct and washed out, BUT… the latest monitor I got (NEC E221N) is different. It's pretty cold by default and has overall decent blues. Colors are not oversaturated, they're just normal. Frankly, it feels more like a level-upped TN-Film panel, than your typical IPS. Sadly, that too doesn't help the strain.
Regarding my vision, it's not perfect anymore, my eyes see differently now, I also have hypermetropia, but it doesn't explain why I don't get issues with this older type of displays, so going "check your eyes" would be definitely irrelevant here.
Hope this is a useful input.
Pudentane I feel for ya man. I'm the same boat, but meanwhile this problem is a quest I am committing to solving.
Just one comment in case it is helpful: as I posted in this thread, my main monitor Asus VS247H-P built in 2012, and a copy built in 2015, do not bother me at all, but a newer copy manufactured in 2018 definitely does bother me. The color in the offending unit is also noticeably more vibrant, and it does have some of that "too warm" feeling. I am only pointing this out because this problem is not simply model specific, it seems to have crept its way into all modern panels (installed even in older monitor models).
If you find something that works for you, please do let us know!
- Edited
Gemsand but meanwhile this problem is a quest I am committing to solving
Honestly, I think the only solution at this point is to use an older/used monitor. I'm not saying the right one doesn't exist among the modern ones, but it could take forever finding it and personally I wouldn't bother looking for it. I've done my share of buying and selling (losing money too) and want to call it a day now. I'd keep using old stuff until they officially come up with something decent. Meanwhile, I don't think even OLED is a solution, it probably shares the same curse, just that few people can report it as very few own them in the first place due to their still exorbitant pricing. I'm sure it will never enter the mainstream and a newer and cheaper technology will arrive sooner than anyone could finally afford it.
Gemsand I am only pointing this out because this problem is not simply model specific, it seems to have crept its way into all modern panels (installed even in older monitor models).
Yes, they do change little things here and there. My build of E221N is from 2022, and it seems they have fixed a few things in it judging by older user reviews, but may as well have brought the strain in, because the original build is from 2017. Either way, I wouldn't expect anything good even from 2012 to be honest. The oldest monitor on my list is HP Z23i, it's from 2013 (the build was from 2013 too, it said so on the back) and frankly it was the worst. Not sure if PWM is to blame, I reckon the PWM hazard is overestimated and flicker-free feature is nothing but a marketing ruse. Saying this, because I also had an even older TN Samsung something, can't remember the model, but I think it was from 2009. It didn't give me any strain whatsoever, yet it was LED and it also had PWM. No issues. It had the worst image and color reproduction though, had a pinkish tint on whites, so it seems the worse the actual image quality the better for the eyes somehow. My laptop screen is also an utter crap, yet it's not giving me any probs. I've seen reports about early Asus VG248QE build, people complained about PWM and eye-strain, but Asus fixed it a bit later and people no longer complained about it. Not sure if no-PWM is what fixed it though, but whoever complained about VG248QE here may have used an earlier build of it, I dunno.
Gemsand The color in the offending unit is also noticeably more vibrant, and it does have some of that "too warm" feeling.
Like I said, they aren't all warm. Asus MG248QR and NEC E221N on my list aren't warm at all, they are coolish. Seriously. Now, HP Z23i and Viewsonic VG2719 are definitely warm and oversaturated. The reds are way too red, greens are too green. Toxic red and acid green, while blue feels weird and not even blue enough, especially on HP Z23i. It's like grey-purplish or something. So the only things that look good on these are pictures of nature, fruit, etc, but when you try watching a movie it looks completely unnatural, reds and greens are way too accentuated and pop where they shouldn't really. I'd say, it's low ̶b̶u̶d̶g̶e̶t̶ quality production for simple minds who think extremely juicy pics of nature and fruit is what makes a good display. Wrong. Either way, I don't think color reproduction or whatever is behind this effect is what accounts for the eye-strain as I have already pointed out two other monitors on my list, which successfully break this theory.
Gemsand If you find something that works for you, please do let us know!
Absolutely. It's definitely going to be NEC EA231WMi, though. Why? Because it's CCFL-backlit, period. I know there is probably some type of a LED display lurking out there, which is probably good for me, but I don't care anymore as I don't want to deal with ANY LEDs. I'm positive CCFL is not going to be a problem, though, plus it really just looks better than LED as it's almost naturally lit. And if I still have a problem, then it's definitely my damaged eyes or brains. I know for a fact that 4:3-type CCFL monitors don't give me any issues like LG Flatron L1x53S/TR or Samsung Syncmaster x43n, or probably NEC EA190M, which I've also been craving. These are all legendary TNs, which never caused any issues to anybody. I have LG 1753TR and LG 1952S, no issues. Positively. Except they aren't good for everything these days anymore, only for movies and older games.
I got sick in year 2000 when first Samsung 19" CCFL monitor came out. Even damaged my eyes to -0.25 -0.50, not fixed by wearing positive lenses. You say CCFL is safe when infact it is very not save due to blue spike at 400nm light hazard.
- Edited
Ok guys, back with good news.
I managed to find a used NEC EA231WMI and bought it. And guess what… problem solved. It met my expectations accurately and all my problems went out the window right there. No more strain. I had to get used to it a little at first though and adjust the brightness, which is now slightly below 50%, but in the end it's an absolute victory. So, those of you who suffer from modern panels, now you know you have at least one decent fallback option in case everything else fails. I absolutely love the monitor, good colors, good viewing angles (in fact, better than with the rest I've had before) good response time, good everything. I don't think I want anything better, because I don't even believe it can get any better at this point.
smilem Sorry to hear that man and also very much surprised. Perhaps early LCDs weren't that great after all or maybe it's just you and your environment, hardware or even OS. You're not a *nix user by any chance are you? Either way, CCFLs have saved people a lot of bs that they had with modern LEDs, which by far are much much more likely to destroy your eyes. Really. I mean, the "pleasant" sensations I've had with all the afore listed models can hardly suggest any positive outcome down the line. So, it's either that or CCFL now. Mine is from 2009-2010 and I like to think it's overall one of the best monitors ever made.