Had the opportunity to see a flicker free * Sony 65x85k through a Sony a7sIII.

Abeabe

A friend of mine bought a flicker free * Sony 65x85k and I asked him if I could look at it trough my sony a7siii to see if I could detect any pwm flicker and to my surprise, I did.

With the camera shutter at 1/8000s and the tv in game mode, with dynamic contrast enhancer disabled, eco mode disabled, light sensor disabled, motion flow disabled and everything at default, I could see pwm flicker at brightness at "0" but I couldn't at "1" and up through "100" , BUT everytime I changed something in the menu or pressed the volume button the tv flickered AGAIN not matter the setting, the same in the google tv interface, the tv flickered all the time not matter the settings, and It was worse with "dynamic contrast enhancer" that enables frame dimming to see everything more pretty, with it enabled the tv flickered with different frequencies, for example at brightness of "1" it flickers faster, but at "5" the flicker lowered the speed and changed again if I press the settings button, so the tv is always displaying different frequencies or speed of flicker, no wonder why tvs messes the brain, all the time they are flickering at different speeds depending on what they're doing.

Eco mode and light sensor also made the tv flicker at slower speeds not matter the brightness setting.

Alyosha2001

You didn't measure the dithering, for that you would need a macro lens with a tripod and a high fps recording. What you measured was the back illumination panel's flicker, and for that standard cameras are not reliable anymore, as the frequency can and goes way past 8kHz.

I saw a 55x80 or 85k in a showroom and it seemd promising for a brief period but I did not have the measuring oscilloscope with me.

nogahorovitch

Alyosha2001
Didi someone measure the Sony 55x80K or 43x80K ?

Abeabe

Alyosha2001 Yes, I only saw the backlight pwm flicker, at 1/8000s was enough to see it.

Abeabe

nogahorovitch I think they are the same as x85k, rtings measured the pwm flicker the same with both, what I realised is that these flicker free* sony tvs suddenly flicker or change the frequency of the pwm depending on what they're doing or what the display is processing, they don't stay flicker free all the time, if some times they do.

I think with a flicker free pc monitor this is different, they stay flicker free all the time and don't flicker suddenly as these tvs does.

nogahorovitch

Abeabe

Thank you!

At what level of brightness was it - high, low?

So is the x80k has PWM at low brightness , or is it true Dc dimming ?

And can someone help me convert 1/8000s to Hz, how much is it?

Abeabe

nogahorovitch I saw the tv, from 0 to 100 in the brightness setting, I think they don't use true dc dimming.

nogahorovitch

Abeabe

I want to use the 55x80k (or 43x80k) for PC monitor, and 15% brightness.

Is in this mode and setting it will flicker ?

Abeabe

nogahorovitch Yes I think it will. 🙁

nogahorovitch

Abeabe
So why did Rtings found, with their most updated testing methodology, that it doesn't flicker ?https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x80k

:-( :-(

Abeabe

nogahorovitch Rtings apparently say one thing and shows another, maybe they should say "this tv is flicker free enough" or something, because I think they mean the tv will not bother the majority of the people, also they get money everytime you buy products through their links.

If you look closely at their graphs in some sony tv reviews like the x80k and x85k, the pwm graphs are not flat at all and still they say these tvs are flicker free, for example I am not sensible to dithering but I am very sensible to pwm flicker and I had a Sony 50x85k that I had to return because I could't use it no matter the configuration, I felt very dizzy I had eye strain, and all the symptoms that I have with flickering led lights.

nogahorovitch

Abeabe Maybe the dizziness from the Sony 50x85k was because it is a VA panel ?

raven83

Abeabe Same problem here with the last year version of the tv the sony 50X85J

Rtings said is was flicker free…. i bought it and had the sames syntoms of flicker tvs.

The panel is a AUO optronics (this year should be the same) and the image quality is below my 43X80D from 2016 wich is true flicker free material….

Hope QD oled tvs change this….

Abeabe

nogahorovitch I don't think so, I have pc monitors with va panels that don't bother me at all.

Abeabe

raven83 Unfortunately QD OLED flicker the same as OLED 🙁

raven83

Abeabe well have you tried a qd oled? Every year i try to upgrade my tv without sucess lol ….i still have hope with qd oled ….waiting for a 48” 50” version….

Abeabe

raven83 Hi raven83, no I have not tried qd oled, but as we move forward I think we will never be able to use modern televisions and more and more people are going to be affected by what television and technology manufacturers are doing, destroying the retinas and brains of people with their super bright flickering, LCD PWM, OLED, QDOLED, HDR, etc technology, we are living something like when leaded gasoline was invented and people used it in their cars without knowing the consequences in the future, I think that brains and eyes are not made to constantly look at super bright flickering lights, but since people keep buying their products, the manufacturers don't give a damn.

raven83

Abeabe Regarding your post! Dont give up as the true test is to experience a TV.

I give you an example i had a flicker tv from lg 32" a couple of years ago without no problem. (remember it was about 1-2 days to adjust) That really puzzles me today as at that time i didnt had this issue nor search tvs to buy based on the flicker free requirements…

After that i bought 3 or 4 tvs from lg and ended returning them all not sure why and began to investigate this. On pc monitors since the 90s i had the concern of buying high refresh rate monitors (Sony Trinitron, Samtron etc ) so i figure it quite rapidly the problem. However even with the same technology could exist diferent approachs of manufacturers…

My advice is try at least two tvs of the same tecnhology from diferent manufacturers (each time reducing the screen size) I dont dismiss QD oled yet…. but i have to try it…..max size for me is 49" - 50" so maybe 2023 or 2024….

Right now i am expecting a Sony 48A9 48" TV so if it does not work OLED is definitely discarded from me…..

QD OLED is a hope to test in the future…. (mini and micro led i dont believe it will be options due to the FALD system)

SAMSUNG SB95 according* to rtings is flicker free on some brightness levels

*i have some doubts about rtings analisys regarding PWM and how they test it.

hayder1983

raven83 Well, i am sure they measure flicker while looking at a static white image. I dont think they do anything else. This might result in MiniLEDs and QLeds being flickerfree with white, but they may flicker on darker colors. But this is just a guess.

Sometimes they update their reviews when someone finds high frequency flicker on his device and reports on the rtings board, so they are honest enough to tell you, when they know. But i dont think that their tests are enough.

EDIT: I think it easier and cheaper to produce a IPS-panel with flicker than without. Flicker helps with color reproduction and motion handling(if users can accept PWM).

But you can use their reviews like a black list. Everything they tested to have flicker is just unusable. Like this Dell monitor from 2021. The rest is worth a shot, if you need a new device.

Abeabe

raven83 I haven't given up, I'd like to buy a 110-inch TV, hehe, but manufacturers instead of developing a stupid super bright HDR standard, super bad for retinas, should develop one for visual health in their devices, they take advantage of the ignorance of the people on the subject and I know it because I know a lot of people who are always red-eyed after finishing watching movies on their led televisions or after being on their computers or on their cell phones for short periods of time, but they don't care because the discomfort in their eyes is not too much, but what about the visual problems that they will develop in the future. And now manufacturers like samsung boast that their computer monitors reach 2000 nits of brightness, imagine what they will do with the advancement of technology combined with thier greed, I have hope of one day buying a good comfortable TV to watch but as we are going I doubt it.