Usable Smartphones?

Maxx

Maxx I tried 2 Epson 3ldc projectors at home after and OLED tv. Both Epson advertises as flicker free. But of course, I was detecting flicker with my dslr and my eyes became bloodshot. During 2006-2010 I had an epson projector at home, which did not show any flicker with a dslr and I was able to watch whole seasons of TV serieses without any issue.

So yes, for me it is the flicker. But e. g my wife did not seem to have any problems with the screens that get my eyes bloodshot

Maxx

Gurm can u just stop? I've been to countless doctors, neurologists, my brain has been mri'd 3 times etc. No no epilepsy. No problem with fast scenes in movies. I can play call of duty marathons for 12 hours straight without any issues with a screen that does not flicker. And your percentage assessment is just wrong. there are quite a number of people just like me, if u look at the forums. Hahaha. pre-epileptic for 25 years. Give me a break

Maxx

Maxx why do u say I'm not going to find it when I have found it already? A DISPLAY THAT DOES NOT FLICKER!

there is no PWM type flicker in nature. I you look at the sun light through tree leaves, the leaves fade in and out over the sun. the light will not go black abrubtly like OLED and the frequency is not as fast. same with light shining from waves. So nothing epileptic or similar about this problem - just my optic nerves are more sensitive to flicker. But flickering light is not natural and I don't believe that is helping anyone

Gurm

Maxx you're absolutely right that it isn't helping anyone, I think prevalence of this will increase. And I'm glad you have displays that work for you. Not ... really ... sure why you're still arguing then? If you've found your solution? Did I miss something? You seem to simply be telling people that they're PWM sensitive, when in fact there are other complicating factors. Not really sure why you can't grasp that. I can tell when a screen has PWM, but it simply doesn't bother me. That said, I am VERY MUCH bothered by LED lighting in the blue spectrum if it's too intense. I'm also hugely impacted by rendering flicker. I just don't care, and never have, about PWM. And I think that for MOST of us, it's a red herring. Because we can make known good displays hurt our eyes by changing the input. Is it a contributing factor for some? Sure.

Anyway, seems you just want to argue. Not going to fuel that any more. I'll be removing my comments and not engaging any further.

Maxx

I guess my non native English is confusing u.

I'm not telling people they are PWM sensitive. In the one previous message I was just kinda jokingly putting it that way, as many are trying to tell me that I'm not in fact PWM sensitive.

Why I'm posting here is that there are others here like me and I 1. want to tell which devices work for me, so they can try if they work for them.2. get similar info from others. 3. get info if something else is being done about the flicker issue.

I do fully accept that there are people with motion sickness, epilepsy, blue light sensitivity, light sensitivity etc. even if I'm not one of them.
OK?

Maxx

But gurm - since u say that all displays have PWM and u don't have issue with PWM, doesn't that kinda imply that you have not tried a display without PWM? (since all displays have it, as u say) maybe u should try a PWM and flicker free display now that you have learned from me which devices are such and see if it makes a difference for u

diop

Maxx Could you not just wait for this problem to resolve itself and continue to use a comfortable display (even a 20 y/o CRT if that's what it takes) and use a HDMI>VGA adapter or similar?

Plug a new computer into an display that works for you, and see if there are still issues.

Maxx

Thank you Gurm for agreeing to stop. Let's try to find solutions and not focus on trying to tell what problem someone else has or doesn't have. I guess we all argee, that LED's and OLED's are a source of problem for many here. So the focus should be on how to make them problem free. For me and many others, removing flicker is enough. For some others, that is not enough, but I'm quite sure that nobody benefits from the flicker.

Maxx

diop That is what I have been doing - I have my HPzr2740w PWM free LCD Led back lit display at home. My surface Pro 2 from 6 years ago at 100 brightness (no PWM) and I just bought a Sony Android low end 65 TV that is flicker free. But why I posted here was that my smartphone broke down and I'm trying to find a smartphone that would have similarly flicker free display as xz premium, but it is difficult to find. I ordered xz2 second hand and I should be able to confirm if that really is flicker free during this week.

At work I have a flicker free Lenovo, but when that gets renewed, I might have difficulties getting a laptop that has flicker free display. As you might know, you just don't bring your own device to many corporations.

So like those who get problems with led bulbs installed to offices, I might be in a similar situation with displays - I might soon have no working devices that I'm able to use.

Gurm

Maxx even with known good displays, many of us are in the same situation at work. My team is building out the next generation of Autopilot machines, that self-install and self-update. I can't stay with Windows 10 1511, which is now 4 years old. Therefore, all displays are bad for me now, irrespective of flicker/pwm/technology/frequency, because Windows introduced flicker/whatever into their rendering pipeline. I've been self-medicating with a THC/CBD tincture, but many people don't have that option where they live due to legality.

As for your phone issue, I'm just not sure you'll find one. I don't know what the original OS was on the XZ Premium, but there have been certain known-good displays in the past. That said, you OUGHT to be able to get another XZ Premium, Google shows them for sale for $265-ish. If the XZ2 is good, so be it, but you might miss the extra screen size. 🙂

Maxx

Gurm xz2 Premium, so that's luckily even bigger.

Yes I've read about the windows version and I've suspected that it introduces some form of flicker, e. g. trying to improve color representation by flahshing pixels. That might be a reason why the flicker is not detectable by notebookchek. net oscilloscope, as the whole screen has a snow effect. I'm running the newest windows at home with a GeForce 970 and thus far at least, no problems. But my surface laptop is unusable even though it does not have PWM.

I've thought if the xperia having a 4k screen with 800 ppi density, is not causing a problem because of the pixels are so small that my eyes cannot see the pixel flickering anymore, but I'm not convinced that is the case, as a surface Pro devices also have quite high ppi and no PWM but still huge eye strain

Gurm

Maxx yeah pixel density seems to not help much of anyone. Although the latest iPhones are ... better ... for some people. But then again, lower pixel density has always been better for me. So it seems pretty hit or miss.

diop

Maxx Yes I've read about the windows version and I've suspected that it introduces some form of flicker, e. g. trying to improve color representation by flahshing pixels.

That is dithering in a nutshell. It simulates a higher color range (e.g. 10bit on a 8bit display) by alternating the pixel colors below and above the target color which the monitor cannot display natively. The speed of flicker should be imperceptible and the user should see the color in-between both values.

Maxx

diop Yes, I recall reading about this. The speed though, is a curious thing, since I have confirmed several times that my eyes get red if I expose them to the XZ premium flicker of 2300 Hz, so I think it's for me mostly irrelevant how fast the pixels are flickering.

there is a reason why some displays use even 100Hz PWM - I think it is because some manufacturers have noted that some people are sensitive to very high frequency flicker. Like I pointed out that the ears can sense 20KHz flicker, why wouldn't the optic nerve be able to sense high frequency flicker too?

Maxx

Maxx I mean, what the eyes and brain really sees, is a different thing what the nervous system registers

KM

Maxx do you know about Android eye strain? The tricky situation is that if you don't have both a ROM that is usable and one that introduces eye strain you can't be sure if the flicker that is causing you trouble is the one you see with your camera or the one that comes from Android updating the pixels in a weird way. I have this situation on my OP3. When I use a low brightness, the display hurts because of 240 Hz PWM. But when I use current Android ROMs, it also hurts in the non-PWM range (in a different way, hard to describe). I suspect the bad changes OnePlus has introduced in Android 7.1 for the OP3 are still there for newer devices, too. So your device/ROM probably has them, too.

The same situation happens when we try a new TV. We can't be sure if the (measurable) screen flicker or rather the way the OS updates the pixels is causing our eye strain. Or both of them. It seems OS eye strain and temporal dithering is everywhere on current devices.

And there's also the third issue, white LED in general causing eye strain. You know it when you have to turn the brightness way down on any white LED screen and can't use any LED bulbs, not even those with tiny 0.01% flicker.

I have all 3 types of eye strain and that makes me wonder if they are all based on the same body/health issue. It seems highly unlikely to have 3 different conditions. If it is even correct to speak of "health issues" when there's no trouble at all in natural bright sunlight.

Maxx

KM Op3 has a oled and for me galaxy s2 s3 did not have PWM at 100 %, but the slight 60hz flicker was enough to cause eye strain. I'm not pushing this idea or doubting your experience, but if u could source a second hand xz premium, at least you could try if a completely flicker free would help.

I was running all the versions of Android with xz premium from the release to 8 so at least the Sony implementation did not cause any problems.

I've had all kinds of led ligjts at my home for years and I don't get any problems from those (that I could notice) but some spot LED's at restaurants or shops that visibly flicker, cause bloodshot eyes. The LED's that I have at home do not visibly flicker and I'm unable to detect flicker with a DSLR.

It would be really interesting to also understand what is it in a led that does not flicker, that causes symptoms for some. The lack of IR seems like the most plausible explanation to me, at the moment. Since my reasoning says that just blue light or bright light should not cause symptoms as light is light whether it shines from a blue color e. g. wall or car or what ever and the intensity of LED's are so tiny comparing to outdoor daylight. Just to be clear, I'm not doupting the issue, just wondering what is it that causes it. If it is the blue, then wearing blue blockers should help.

Maxx

for me this started in '93 when I mysteriously started having bloodshot eyes without any reason. At the time I had got a Sony trinitron crt. Only in 98 when I got a trinitron pc monitor, I realized that it is the trinitron. Got rid of trinitron and problem was almost gone, but crts still caused some strain and I kept having mildly bloodshot eyes. Then when at work I got a PWM ctlf Lcd, the problem got worse again, just like with the trinitron. I was using a crt connected to my laptop to mitigate the problem. Then when I finally was able to source Led monitors that did not have PWM at 100%, The problem went away, until OLED phones.

degen

Maxx If all you need is a PWM free LCD phone there are many iPhones which fit that bill. 8 Plus, XR, 11 non-pro, all very capable modern smartphones.

JTL

degen Eh. Regarding the newer iPhones I've be concerned about the flashing infrared lights used for "Face ID" and other purposes.

Didn't even need to remove the fingerprint scanner really.

Maxx

degen Not just PWM free, also flicker free. Huawei Nova 5t seems to have the dithering which is getting my eyes mildly bloodshot. Nova 5t seems to be a phone that I could tolerate, especially if I would try to limit my usage a bit. But why have phone that irritates the eyes, if I could have a phone that does not irritate at all, like XZ Premium. That should arrive from repair shop this week, if they are able to fix it.

Byt the way, my HPZR2740w display seems to be 10 display, so maybe that is the reason that it is OK to use with recent windows, as there is no need for the 8bit to 10bit dithering?

Apple products I will not touch.

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