In select cases, users report suffering headaches and eyestrain from using LG W-OLED and Samsung QD-OLED desktop monitors (And TV's). A select amount of these users report that they don't experience eyestrain after using smartphones with OLED displays. If you're that person, this thread might be helpful to you. I fall into that category myself. I've used iPhones, Galaxies and Pixels and even when I used them in the ''worst use case'' scenarios meaning in a pitch black room, under bed sheets, very closely to the eyes, my eyes feel fine after long term use (hours). I've recently bought a few OLED monitors. These all result in very noticable eyestrain, burning eyes, dry eyes and general discomfort after 15 minutes of use. Here's the OLED monitors that I've bought and tried: Philips 27E1N8900 J-OLED series monitor (4K60) Innocn 15A1F AMOLED monitor (1080p60) LG 27GR95QE W-OLED monitor (1440p240Hz) The odd thing about this is that LG W-OLED and Samsung QD-OLED monitors are regarded virtually flicker free, whilst the smartphones are known to flicker with high modulation. Yet, some users report that the eyestrain happens with the monitors, not the smartphones. So here we try to reason why. I've used a smartphone with slow shutter speed to record the frequency graph and behaviour of OLED smartphones and then the monitors. Here the following becomes clear. The smartphones below 60% brightness have thicker black lines going through the screen, these are the off cycles. Them being thick, means the off cycle is longer. So long, that the off cycles look longer than the on cycles in some cases. Illustration here, with in red marked the ''off'' cycle, which in this case seems to help. The monitors, including all 3 I've listed above, exhibit significantly less black lines that are also much thinner, when measured with a slow shutter speed camera. Here, the duty cycle looks ''on'' for the major part (illustration added as an example) , with occasionally a thin/faint line (or 2-3 max) going through the screen So theory number one is that the long ''duty on cycle'' seems to hurt the eyes. Which also raises a possible theory that a permanent on (meaning fully flicker free, no off dip) could actually hurt the eyes more, since well, you get a permanent on cycle. That theory could mean that the nature of how OLED pixels emit light without any flicker possibly hurt a certain group of people. Which would be weird, and I don't know why that would be. But It's interesting to think about. The second theory is that a long on cycle, paired with the short off cycle is what causes the eye strain and that a permanent on could still eliminate it, or rather longer and more deeply modulated off cycles could eliminate it as well. Why the eyes would be more bothered by the long on cycles, rather than the long off cycles from using smartphones for a select amount of users, is worth thinking about. I didn't see this be explained like this before, so hence why I decided to post this here.

LG W-OLED and Samsung QD-OLED monitors are regarded virtually flicker free I don't know who regards them as such, but doing so is definitely not correct. possible theory that a permanent on (meaning fully flicker free, no off dip) could actually hurt the eyes more, since well, you get a permanent on cycle That's pretty much disproven by anyone sensitive who has an AMOLED device with selectable "DC dimming" or one that doesn't use PWM at certain brightness levels: on the same device, the eye strain is not there or at least reduced when PWM is off. What could matter apart from flicker is the spectrum: AMOLED have red, green, and blue lights while White OLED is just one very intense blue light. I have bought a portable, battery-driven White OLED lamp from OSRAM. I could not detect any flicker with more sophisticated measurement methods, yet that lamp causes heavy eye strain within a few minutes. This made it clear to me that if flicker is ruled out the only thing that remains is the light itself.

KM That's pretty much disproven by anyone sensitive who has an AMOLED device with selectable "DC dimming" or one that doesn't use PWM at certain brightness levels: on the same device, the eye strain is not there or at least reduced when PWM is off. Yeah but you are misunderstanding the point. I'm trying to discuss this from the perspective of a user who doesn't get eye strain from smartphones at all even with the regular PWM dimming (No DC Dimming), even at lower brightness settings where the off cycles are long, but then DOES get it from using OLED monitors either way. The frequency and on cycle behaviour + the differences here matter. Review websites like Rtings and TFTCentral brand them as flicker free, by saying ''they technically have a very small dip for correction at the refresh rate, but this isn't noticable'' What could matter apart from flicker is the spectrum: AMOLED have red, green, and blue lights while White OLED is just one very intense blue light. I have bought a portable, battery-driven White OLED lamp from OSRAM. I could not detect any flicker with more sophisticated measurement methods, yet that lamp causes heavy eye strain within a few minutes. This made it clear to me that if flicker is ruled out the only thing that remains is the light itself. This part is interesting, and I think it may play a role. The intensity of light seems to matter.

You also need to be aware of pixel eye strain: FRC, temporal dithering and other things that we haven't properly revealed yet but must definitely be caused by the way pixels are updated can cause eye strain and headaches, too. This is your first post here, so I don't know how well-informed you are yet. It is necessary to rule out known factors. Many people here get eye strain after an OS upgrade or driver update, and they get relief after downgrading (if possible). This makes it much more complicated to isolate a specific device's cause of eye strain. If you thoroughly want to analyze the waveforms you may need to use better measurement equipment: https://ledstrain.org/d/312-homemade-oscilloscope-to-detect-pwm-diy-guide

There are a lot of alternative explanations to your experiences, so I think its important you look for a way to test it. Such as a TV or Smartphone with an OLED screen that behaves in an opposite manner to what you've observed. A few alternative explanations: Smartphones are typically used for shorter durations compared to TVs, Smartphones are a lot smaller in size, Smartphones are viewed much closer to the eyes, Smartphones output far less light, even if at a similar brightness per area compared to a TV.

KM I've singled out the eye strain only happens when OLED monitors are connected, and that Its fine once I go back to the LCD monitor, which is in this case the Cooler Master GM27-FQS. The eye strain happens on an Xbox Series X, PS5 and a PC running Windows 11, but only when OLED's are tested. All units are otherwise fine when the LCD is connected instead, with the same drivers and OS. So my assumption is that other equipment is likely to not be the cause. The eye strain happens on both a true RGB pixel lay-out (4K J-OLED from Philips) as well as a subpixel lay-out like the LG W-OLED. So I don't think that subpixel matrix is the reason either. I haven't thoroughly researched whether the Cooler Master, Philips or LG use FRC dithering, but I think the Cooler Master is 8 bit + FRC, which is the one that's comfortable to use.

I cannot use OLED smartphones at all but somewhat can watch LG Oled TV for not much prolonged period, especially with all those unneeded smart features turned off (such as automatic saturation, color controls, AI features, noise reduction, individual zones backlight control etc)

I am in the same spot as the autor of this topic…. Sony experia XZ3 oled no problems Tvs - LG oled + Sony oled + Sony qd Oled = headaches….. Still finding a usefull tv…

Eyestrain from OLED monitors/TV's, but not OLED smartphones: A theory

jordan

I think I can sorta relate too. Whenever I use DC dimming on my 13T it kills me which would be similar to the longer duty cycle before the refresh brightness dip? High Hz pwm feels better

madmozg

I'm on a same boat.

Gerard84

I have the exact same experience. I can use an iPhone 15 pro (oled) for a long time, even in bed and in a completely blacked out room.

I have recently had my first experience with Oled tv’s, first a Sony Bravia 8 (woled tv) and now a Samsung S95D (qd-oled). Image quality on the S95D is just exceptional, but unfortunately both tv's give me severe eye strain. It does not seem to be related to brightness, although this does seem to make it worse (high brightness/HDR content etc.). The matte screen of the S95D looked certainly better and easier on the eyes at first, but still becomes pretty much unwatchable for me in only a matter of days. I have never had an issue with glossy screens, so that (for me) does not seem to be related.

The first few days the image was reasonable for a few hours, but on day 3/4 I could not watch it for more than a few minutes. It seems the strain is building up over time and gets worse every day. My first thought was maybe I just have to get used to it, but how can I get used to something if I am not even able to watch it any longer than a few minutes a time. At first the brightness of these new tv’s was also a lot higher, but I seem to have adjusted to that.

My previous tv BTW was a Samsung KS7000 (2016) and had 120hz pulse width modulation dimming. This is pretty similar to the refresh rate and PWM on my iPhone 15 pro. Today I went to the TV store and watched several Samsung 8K Neo Qled tv's (similar design and one connect box) and had no issues for 1,5 hours watching straight. These also have 120hz PWM. The moment I transferred to one of the Samsung Oled’s on display, the eye strain was back almost immediately.

So my theory is that our brain can somehow pickup the PWM and ignore it, because it is clearly discernible and very stable. The slight dip that occurs on Oled tv's, however, is also picked up by our brains, but it is not easily discernible and that is why I believe our brains instruct our eyes to try to focus on it and as a consequence the muscles get tired, very quickly. Our brains simply can’t ignore it for some reason. Probably most people just don't pick it up.

I am a high sensitive person in general, but also have a neurological condition, which might add to the sensitivity. I can also see the oled flicker when the image is still, whereas my wife does not. I don't know if my eyes are seeing it, or it is just my eye muscles that are flickering instead, trying to adjust to the image. It is too bad this is not a more researched phenomenon. The oled flicker also seems to be less steady as a whole when you view the screen in slow motion (240fps), with LED it seems to be a more constant flicker, but maybe that is just my feeling.

Hope I will someday understand what is going on here. The people in the store never heard of it. At least you know you are not alone and you are not crazy 🙂!

Update 08/08/24: I went to the optician today and found out I need prism glasses due to double vision, see more detailed response below.

tomek

Gerard84 Check my post about Samsung S90C Oled, now I use as you iPhone 15 Pro max with no issue even at night and with this settings Oled TV too.

https://ledstrain.org/d/2886-oled-tv-samsung-s90c/18

I think it's related to color temperature, color space and contrast. I was fighting with thees setting almost two months to get more natural look. White are white (maybe for me) and colors looks like in my iPhone so maybe then brain can compare this to other devices and skip this PWM case.

Gerard84

tomek Thanks for your response. I have seen your post and tried your settings a few days ago, but unfortunately they did not make a big difference for me. Yes it is a bit easier on the eyes, but I still get this very weird dizzy feeling, pain in my eyes, can't focus on the screen etc. Distance also doesn't matter. I can watch a Samsung Neo Qled in vivid mode and full brightness in the store and don't get this weird sensation at all. Yes I get a bit fatigue from the very vivid brightness, but that feels very different, I would say more burned feeling. If I try your settings the picture also becomes too dark for my personal taste. I am pretty certain for me it is not so much a brightness/blue light or contrast problem, but more a motion/flicker problem. I can't even watch this tv for more than a few minutes a day. I will give it a few days rest and try again. BTW I also tried a Sony Bravia 8, which actually has a much more natural and less colorful tuning.

The fact that I am already experiencing it when the screen is still/pauzed makes me think it is the brightness dip (flicker) that happens with every refresh cycle on Oled tv's. You can clearly see it when you make a slowmotion 240fps video on your phone. Somehow I don't seem to be sensitive to PWM flicker. For me changing to a miniled is probably the best thing. Oled's unfortunately are not for me. Maybe in the future when Oleds are replaced with microleds, I can test if it is indeed the contrast or the refresh tech.

Update 08/08/24: I went to the optician today and found out I need prism glasses due to double vision, see more detailed response below.

Gerard84

tomek Maybe you are right and it is contrast/sharpness causing the issue after all 😉! I went to the optician today and found out I need prism glasses due to double vision. This might explain why I have trouble focusing and get headaches from watching an OLED TV. The optician mentioned that the contrast of an OLED is much higher and sharper, which could cause my eyes to constantly try to focus, whereas they don't do this with a regular TV, as it has much less contrast and sharpness. I will receive my new prism glasses (with blue filter this time) in about 10 days time, so hopefully that will solve the issue for me. As a preliminary test I have noticed that when I sit very close to the TV, within 1 meter, I don't seem to get the eye strain. Will keep you all posted once I get the new glasses. Maybe for some of you this could be a solution as well.

Gerard84

tomek So I received my new glasses yesterday and tried them. I have a prism diopter of 1, which is considered a relatively small amount of prism correction. I did notice a slight improvement in my depth perception and it is easier for me to focus especially with fast movement, soccer games etc. I am also able to slightly better focus in the S95D Oled screen in general, but still get severe eye strain after about 5/10 minutes.

madmozg So to add to your comment, yes it seems there is more going on and it might well be that slight brightness dip on the refresh rate. So back to my theory above again.

madmozg

Gerard84 I don't have any double vision problems, but Its hard for my eyes to focus on text on OLED TVs. I'm pretty much sure its because of that low refresh rate of their brightness dip. But maybe it will help you, good luck with your testing!

TV2Expensive

from what i've read:

LED monitors have layers of light filtering material to diffuse light which can make things look "softer"

The pixel structures of IPS/VA LCD looks most correct in a raster grid. woled and qd-oled have strange pixel structures that dont look correct in raster grids. theres too much black space between qd-oled pixels for example. and forget about subpixel text rendering. Raster grids is pretty important for computer use..

Theres narrow bandwidth and broadband spectrum displays. All wide gamut displays are narrow spectrum primaries with higher energy which may cause eye strain in some sensitive people??? quantum dot has narrow band primaries, woled has a smoother spectra.

The presence of polarizer layer and different anti reflective coating can also make your brain see the light in weird way and cause stress.

Also the monitors OP tested should be tested should only be used in sRGB gamut mode. the high color saturation of native gamut on those displays can also cause eye strain.

For reference, some of Apple's LCD displays are great and designed for long use.

photon78s

TV2Expensive

Which Apple displays?

TV2Expensive

photon78s

most of their high end LCD displays are good, iMac 24" 4.5K, ipad pro 12.9 M1 M2 with the mini led. their 6K external display and others. Im a recent convert from oled back to LCD. Sony also reverted back to LCD (dual layer) for their HX3110 reference monitor and most of their tvs. The technology in the newest sony bravia 9 is very similar to the apple 6K mini led that came out 5 years ago.

TV2Expensive

photon78s

Another interesting thing I noticed is some LCD TVs have a big gap between the LCD layer and the backlight. The gap is so big that if you look on the edge of the LCD you can actually see through and see a 1cm hollow space inside. I was walking in the store and these TVs stood out as they looked like fake Ikea demo TVs or a static signage due to the way light disperses inside. I was surprised when the picture changed. These looked most pleasant to my eyes.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

TV2Expensive ipad pro 12.9 M1 M2 with the mini led

this screen sucks, instant eye strain and brain fog feeling when i used it in the store and another time at a random kiosk, nothing on the screen seems to have the correct flat perspective and everything constantly feels like it's shifting, it's like i can only rest my eyes on whitespace and not the actual on-screen objects themselves, and it's similar to the 14" MacBook Pro mini-LED which is literally the worst screen I've ever used

(the 14" mini-LED MBP was so bad that it made me seriously think i was developing dyslexia or some kind of severe eye spasm until i suddenly realized i only experienced that when i was using that specific laptop)

IMO apple screens are not designed for long-term use at all, they are not built for text and information-dense UI and content, they only seem to be built to show photos/videos in an "impressive" way to keep pushing the spec numbers up without any care for ergonomics

there are a couple apple screens I can use though, 2016 13" Touch Bar MBP is fine for most use cases (in fact it's the only P3 wide color gamut screen i can use for the whole day. i'm also writing this reply on it right now), 2015 12" MacBook is okayish, the original iPhone 4 is significantly more comfortable than other iPhones, and anything before 2011 like the 2009 13" MBP has a comfortable and surprisingly stable image with the exception of some PWM/pixel inversion-related strain —— but they are few and far between, and starting around 2015~2018ish new Apple screens have started to get worse and worse every year

also, I've consistently seen the 5K iMac (and probably 4.5K) reported as examples here for "the first time i experienced LED strain" so I can't vouch for those either

photon78s

TV2Expensive

Interesting. Do you have model information on these TVs?

D1Vad

I started working from home full time and my Samsung G8 QD-OLED was causing instant eye strain that I had to sell it.

Back to a 32" 1440p IPS now and zero issues.

I have always found my eyes more sensitive than others, but I got other family members to try my monitor and all experienced the same instant eye strain.

It now has me worried about my LG W-OLED TV. I dont use it as long or read text. But i did some testing and found reading bright white text on black background also slightly straining.

I have always turned down brightness and contrast on LCDs i use. So i think for me it might be OLEDs contrast is just too good and bright for my eyes.

On the QD-OLED monitor i found white text on black background was far worst. So i stopped using dark theme. But was still too painful to keep.

Clokwork

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs hits home. My Touch Bar MacBook is the only laptop from Apple I can use. Thankfully it still gets updates. I don’t know what I’ll do when they cease support for it.

photon78s

Assessment of the effect on the human body of the flicker of OLED displays of smartphones

This paper considers the effects on the human body of the flicker of organic light-emitting diode (OLED) displays. Related studies have been conducted due to reports of cases of adverse health effects of the use of artificial lighting. Interest in this problem recently intensified with the development of various new displays and the longer exposure time of people to them. Therefore, the previous studies on the effects of artificial lighting on the human body are described in this paper, and based on them, the dimming technique for liquid-crystal displays and OLED displays of smartphones is explained and the effect of the flicker of OLED displays on the human body is assessed.

They mention how flicker reduced by distance:

The PWM of the OLED display is similar to the PWM of the LCD display in terms of pixels, but is recognized as DC when viewed from a certain distance as in the actual use environment, as shown in Figure 13 (see below)

Interesting paper but one may argue they are missing some other factors that may contribute to strain. One might try sitting farther away from OLEDs in particular? Note the author works for Samsung Display and the paper reports no conflict of interest.

JTL

photon78s Assessment of the effect on the human body of the flicker of OLED displays of smartphones

I have seen that study before

The PWM of the OLED display is similar to the PWM of the LCD display in terms of pixels, but is recognized as DC when viewed from a certain distance as in the actual use environment, as shown in Figure 13 (see below)

I think that's a flawed conclusion, and doesn't necessarily reflect how human vision or neurology actually work.

Note the author works for Samsung Display and the paper reports no conflict of interest.

Seen another way that could be considered the conflict of interest. Perhaps Samsung is using the results of this "study" to justify not further improving the flicker on their OLED displays.

photon78s

JTL

I was suspecting that conflict of interest as well. Another recent paper at least includes statements like these but also mentions not having access to oscilloscopes which sounds like a bad excuse:
https://rbh.rsmu.press/files/issues/rbh.rsmu.press/2024/2024-1_en.pdf#page=48

The method of increasing brightness to 100% can be found on many web-sites on “combating PWM”. This, on the contrary, makes the light emitted by LEDs almost continuous and reduces pulsation, while the screen brightness is adjusted (reduced) at the expense of the contrast parameter. However, such an approach is not always effective. For example, increasing brightness to 100% on the Huawei MateBook D14 laptop led to the emergence of pronounced PWM and subjective sensation of eye pain. This suggests that, despite positive feedback from the Internet users, the approach cannot be used for all screen types.

Thus, currently, LEDs are being introduced into screen designs everywhere, while the issue of the LEDs hygienic assessment remains unresolved. It is important to avoid the situations, when in pursuit of a high-quality image the technology causing visual discomfort in the susceptible population group is implemented.

The lack of information about the presence of PWM in the data sheets of devices, as well as the method for hygienic examination of this factors, has led to the emergence of forums and websites focused on “combating PWM” (RTINGS.com), where enthusiasts test screens for PWM by themselves...

async

Relevant topic

https://ledstrain.org/d/1334-smartphone-polarization-research

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

Clokwork

Yep, btw for me I also owned a 2020 Intel 13" Touch Bar at one point and that one was not usable for me (somewhat better than M1, but still very bad)

So in my case, specifically the 2016 Intel 13" Touch Bar is the only "modern" Mac that is usable for me and does not cause me to see a "false 3D effect"

Also, are you sure you want to keep installing updates on your Mac? macOS updates on Intel Macs can also include "firmware" updates (similar to BIOS updates) in a way that is near-impossible to revert even if you downgrade the OS, and there's always the chance that can affect the display controller or GPU in some way.