photon78s I thought about it some time ago, but in reality I think first step is needed to establish percentage of people who experience eye strain. This way at least we could be a bit more self aware how big the problem is from more objective standpoint. Once this data is known, we could evaluate, what is the bottom line (or objective wise) importance for brand such as apple. The reason this step is important - we know and apple knows they cut corners constantly for reasons that could be explained by their various functional goals. E.g. getting rid of ports - which has benefits of efficiency, price, design simplicity, but on another hand caused inconvenience for some users (not all). So its really of trying to find a case where their "cutting corners" approach could have caused more harm than they have initially planned (or not planned at all). Then this could potentially give rise to opening up some of its technologies for communities such as ledstrain to experiment on, or reverse some of the decisions they have made. (We agree that GPU definitely has issues I assume, in addition to other issues of display technology from suppliers).

    Donux When it comes to windows lenovo is ok

    Yep, for my use case I would be buying one for Windows and not Linux, so that's all I would be looking for. I'm also definitely going for a matte screen and not shiny

    Donux Maybe there is slight feeling in the eyes due to shiny screen, but comparing to macbook air m2, it is nothing.

    This is really good to hear. It's very telling that I would say the majority people find their way to this forum because of an experience with specifically an Apple device (including me)

    I know that the newest / post-2020 ThinkPads have Iris XE graphics. I'm wondering is Iris XE "as bad for eyestrain as it's made out to be here" on a matte screen laptop? Specifically the internal display

    As that is my impression right now from what I've read so far, that's why I'm most likely going to pick up a ThinkPad with HD 620 or earlier. But I'm curious if anyone here at all has had a good experience with an Iris XE powered ThinkPad + ditherig.exe

        13 days later

        Hi folks!
        Try to use the StillColor + the Sub-zero dimming feature at the Lunar App (more about it here https://lunar.fyi/changelog#6_1_1 and here https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macbook-pro-14-m2pro-pwm-solution.2386836/)

        + Via the Lunar you can reduce white point without changing the screen brightness (Lunar app > colors > whites 60% - my option and screen brightness > 80%)

        These 2 tools saved my eyes and I can use the new MacBooks without eyestrain again (Air m1 & MPB m1 pro 16")

        Best regards

          macsforme I found a sealed refurbished base model M2 MacBook Pro 13” on eBay for $750, and it arrived yesterday.

          I wanted to follow up on my experience with this model over time as some others have.

          I ran several versions of Ventura with roughly equal comfort (or lack thereof). The settings I found most comfortable were: StillColor active, display resolution at native 2X retina, True Tone disabled, and Night Shift disabled. I'm not sure if it made a difference in my case, but I also disabled the touch bar unless the function key was pressed, per the instructions here.

          macsforme So far, the display looks stable and mostly comfortable, although there is a slight warm undertone (compared to the older displays I am used to) which I associate with discomfort but I believe this is residual and I can adapt to the screen.

          As I previously noted, the panel has uniform colors with a slightly warm undertone (after some time, I would now describe it as a sort of "murky orange" undertone). In my experience, this is consistent with the appearance of modern (especially wide-gamut) displays which I tend to find uncomfortable. I also briefly tried Asahi Linux, and I sensed the same warm undertone (along with perhaps some additional flickering, likely due to the re-introduction of temporal dithering), so I attributed the tone to the panel itself rather than some macOS issue.

          While I can tolerate the screen, especially for short periods, I found it to be harsh. I tend to notice the harshness of screens most acutely when I am short on sleep and/or have had more screen time than usual. During one such recent episode, I had some pronounced discomfort while using the device, along with some pain in my forehead right above my eyes. Looking back to one of my other daily-use screens provided immediate relief.

          Interestingly, while I alluded to the warm undertone, I would not say that the overall color tone of the display was specifically warm. Visually comparing color palettes between this and an older MacBook side-by-side, I would say the colors themselves (including white) appeared roughly equal if not even slightly cooler on this M2 touchbar MacBook Pro. So, I'm not even sure what I am seeing/sensing. It reminded me somewhat of the murky warm undertone of my 14" M1 Pro MacBook Pro (with mini-LED XDR display) where all my problems started. I speculated earlier that I may still have some residual psychological effects/associations which could be overcome with regular use. I still allow for this possibility, but unfortunately I do not have the ability to make this my primary device and use it for hours every day to find out.

          As a final point of comparison, I recently received a work-issued 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro (with mini-LED XDR display), and forced to use it as a daily driver for about two weeks of training. In theory, this machine should have bothered me severely, but I actually found it quite tolerable and found the display to be clear, with a pleasant cool undertone (after disabling True Tone) such as I am accustomed to. This was even before enabling StillColor (I could not upgrade past Monterey until after the training). I compared this machine side-by-side with my M2 touchbar MacBook Pro, and counterintuitively I actually found the 16" XDR panel more pleasant and tolerable. I know a few others here have reported comparing 14" and 16" MacBook Pro XDR panels side-by-side and finding some much more tolerable than others, so this must be the panel lottery in effect.

          Ultimately, I do not plan to keep the M2 touchbar MacBook Pro, as I consider simply tolerating a device for short periods to be unacceptable. After years of struggling to find a modern Apple product that does not bother me, I am weary of the fight and I sense that I may be coming to the end of my time as their customer. My last option may be a desktop Mini or Studio, but with forced 10-bit color output from any Apple Silicon Mac to my standard monitors (likely triggering FRC), I am deeply skeptical.

                macsforme which panel of the MacBook 2022 model? Mine is the ones with a lot of zeros.

                I have mine for two weeks now and with patching on and off I think I am getting more comfortable using the screen (without a patch).

                For me it seems like the screen is more comfortable under 60% brightness

                    karut It was a DCN panel with PROD+B000000000000+00000000000000000000000000. From what I've read here, I believe my panel was a good one (especially as far as uniformity) compared to some other descriptions, so I suspect the underlying technology is what is bothering me.

                    I concur that certain brightness levels were more comfortable than others. For me, it seemed to be a very specific tick around or just over 50% that was best.

                    I'm glad that patching seems to be working for you. I would concede that I might also be able to adjust to it given the right circumstances and enough time.

                      karut Changing the "white point" via the Lunar App you can reduce the brightness of your screen without changing real brightness (100%), which will not change the voltage of the screen brightness and PWM. It will be much easier for your eyes

                          Hunter20 You're mostly correct in that all of the mini-LED Pros and all of the Airs do in fact have PWM at max —

                          however, the one exception is the "touch bar and USB-C only" 2022 M2 model (and possibly the touch bar 2020 M1 as well) which actually does not have PWM on the main internal display at max!

                              For me, the worst "feature" of these screens is the the super-bright, angry, unnatural whiteness. This bothers me way more than PWM or dithering.

                              If this is you, adjusting the white point can help. This is a different effect than using a NightShift type solution that puts a color tint over the screen. I use BetterDisplay image adjustments control the white point. It does not make the screen all day comfortable though.

                              DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

                              But still, if you dim using an overlay on a LCD screen, you will only change the shown colors to appear darker at pixel level, but your backlight will still emitt at 100% strength.

                              In theory it should only work for oled panels, because they have no backlight, every pixel emitts its own light (but the panel has ofcourse to be pwm free at 100% brightness)

                                If anyone is interested in lowering the white point of the MacBook Pro M2 TB with the good screen, I can share a D55 screen profile generated with a Calibrite Display SL colorimeter. These screens are very accurate after being calibrated to 5500k (Avg DeltaE of 0.5). This is likely to be much more accurate than BetterDisplay tweaks.

                                (I've always calibrated all my displays to a warmer white point than the native D65; even apart from the blue light and eye strain angles, D65 has never really made sense to me for reading.)

                                  karut So is MBP M2 14 really the one?

                                  And if MBP 2022 14 is the one, why then MBP M3 14 is not the one? In shops they are not even selling brand new M2 anymore.

                                      Donux I meant the 13" model. At least under 60% brightness with the internal screen or with an external monitor I almost have no eye strain. Good enough to work with for hours. Display is not totally still though. Might try a matte screen protector.

                                      It feels better than the MBA M1 I tried.

                                          karut I don't think this forum supports non-image attachments, so here's a link to the calibrated display profile: https://we.tl/t-ZZdQYVUMd9 Let me know what you think 🙂

                                          BTW, for these MBP M2 TB machines, I don't recommend disabling Uniformity2D.

                                            karut Based on what I am hearing, there is no definite solution. Solution should be solid - no crazy tinkering workarounds. The most what could be done is color profile change, that's it.

                                              dev