Lenovo T480 - Yes, Win10 1809 downgrade *matters* just like others say here

photon78s Alright, the main thing that matters to me is only that there is no PWM at max brightness (since I almost always run 300 nits screens at 100% brightness anyway).

Using any old iPhone 5s or later I'm pretty sure that flicker can be detected on those two websites I mentioned earlier (in Firefox, to avoid Chrome's dithering on the banding test) while filiming in the iOS slow motion mode. I can see it at both 120hz and 240hz camera settings, I typically use 240hz. It's not Firefox causing it because it also shows up in a screenshot of those pages loaded into MS Paint.

Simply filming those sites at 100% brightness is what I do on my 14 Pro or SE 2020 and it's very obvious that the gradients/backgrounds on those sites are flickering. White backgrounds won't actually indicate PWM on most cameras as that's when the cameras are more likely to filter it out, which is why I use gray instead.

photon78s Interesting, I see a faint line at 0:18 moving from the top to bottom similar to a PWM scanning pattern, a few times in some other points in the video as well, I wonder if your camera is filtering it out

For me, I get a lot of camera noise on all screens, but I either see

• nothing at all except noise, indicating no PWM at max (MacBook Pro 2016 and M2 Touch Bar 2022 where I can't detect it at any level, and two Samsung TN monitors that are only stable at 100% but otherwise show obvious PWM anywhere else under that)
• very thin lines that indicate high frequency (Surface Pro 4)
• or, the entire background is constantly flashing slightly darker and brighter very obviously (pretty much every other laptop I've tested, even my favorite reliable Yoga 13 2012)

I've never seen "a line that moves down but then goes away" like I can spot in that recording

it seems like anyone who has a camera that was capable of detecting the PWM on the M2 Air (which were originally mistaken to be PWM free before some others and I each tested multiple models of M2 Airs) also has a good chance of being able to detect PWM at max brightness on other laptops too

photon78s What shutter speed and other settings are you using in your filming for testing replication purposes

Basically the default iPhone 14 Pro camera app on iOS 16.4.1, slow motion, 1080p 240hz, 1x zoom, slightly lower exposure after focusing in order to get the colors on the screen to look like what I see. No changes to shutter speed as the default camera app doesn't have any setting for that. I also sometimes need to lightly clean all the lenses including the LIDAR sensor before filming as the lenses on this phone frequently get super dirty and wash out the image lol

Sometimes I can even see the flicker in the slow mo view finder before tapping record. But it goes away in photo and video mode. This implies that any internal anti banding feature probably gets turned off in general by iOS in slow motion mode. It's also ideal to turn off all light bulbs in whatever room you're in too, just sunlight, to rule out any other flicker.

In settings I have view outside frame unchecked, prioritize faster shooting checked, lens correction unchecked, macro control checked if that matters

I've also been able to get basically the same results filming with an iPhone SE 2020 on iOS 17.2.1. So probably many iPhones will work.

Update:

@photon78s

• Even though I was able to """kinda""" improve the Innolux N140HCA-EAB enough where I could "at least look at it", the Innolux still sucked, generally super strainy, really weird and obvious color and oversharpening anomalies, and much more intense false 3D effect compared to my good devices.

• Today I just swapped out the 2016 Innolux panel for a 2014 LG LP140WF3-SPD1 (LGD046D). Luckily was available from a smaller eBay seller as "open-box old stock", so I knew I would receive the exact panel and not some "compatible" one.

• Both are 1080p 6-bit, although the LG is brighter and has more sRGB coverage. Was inspired by this post which claimed that they could "stare at it for hours and hours without getting sore eyes or a headache"… so definitely wanted to try

first impressions

• Day one impressions: at the very least, I am never touching Innolux again LOL

• At least when compared to the Innolux, the LG is a breath of fresh air… Brightness level is great. No more "immediate" eye pressure and headache. The screen doesn't feel like it "bulges out in the center" like the Innolux did. Whites are less yellow, and I notice that I can read text from farther away. Matte coating is WAY better, I could tell even before I installed it. However, too early to determine if it's safe.

• This 2014 LG is also definitely better than a newer LG 1440p that came with a T480s I tried, definitely seems to be flatter and no "instant disorientation" like that one caused.

Note that the LP140WF3-SPD1 was apparently manufactured in both glossy and matte versions according to some Reddit posts. Mine is matte

has mild flicker, but my "safe" screen does too

• The LG does have mild ("tiny brightness dip" style, non-strobe) PWM and I can see some pixel inversion, but my "perfect" panel (LP133WD2-SLB1 from 2012) also has this. The PWM looks like the same intensity on camera. I don't see any "erratic" temporal dithering on either LG after launching ditherig.exe -- just pixel inversion. At least on my trusty SLB1, these have never affected my eyestrain or productivity, so I'm not worried about this part.

For reference, the bad Innolux panel has similar brightness dips, but that one sucks whereas my "reference" SLB1 is fine. If I only had the Innolux, I would probably think that flicker was the issue… but I have a safe screen with the same flicker, so I can rule that out. (On the other hand, "strobe-style" PWM definitely messes with me)

no verdict until i fully test

• Will need to put this LG through a full week of testing before I make any claims. I already know that I'm 100% avoiding Innolux, even their higher end panels (this is why).

• Will do some in depth comparison with a bunch of test images on both my safe 2012 SLB1 and this 2014 SPD1. I will post later about any specific differences I notice (aside from the obvious ones like wider color gamut). Seems to be less difference between Windows 10 and the VM now, but can't say for certain yet. Still on 1809

• Definitely regret contributing to the infamous "usable panel turned out to be bad" problem here with some of my earlier posts about the Innolux. I've learned, will be more considerate in the future.

• Currently, the 13-inch 2012 LP133WD2-SLB1 is still the ONLY laptop+desktop display, even considering CCFL monitors, that I can 100% say with certainty is safe -- i.e. easy to read AND does not cause eye strain.

  (It's also a total mystery, as that 2012 screen is so uniquely good despite its mild flicker and WLED backlight.)

• However, first impressions of the LP140WF3-SPD1 seem OK. I wrote this post on here and unlike the Innolux I don't have a headache afterwards.

• The real test though is how it stacks up against my single "truly good" panel. I'll update a week from now. Cautiously optimistic

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs one thing I'm liking about this new LG screen is that it feels like my eyes can relax by "looking past it" -- despite it being matte instead of glossy -- this reduces strain because it doesn't feel like it's a harsh brick wall that "stops my eyes" at it

Pleasantly surprised by this. Originally I thought this feeling was only possible with glossy screens (because it seemed to be connected to looking at the reflection), but this indicates it's possibly more about the pixels themselves

(cc @async)

On the other hand, the prior Innolux was absolutely horrible with this. In addition, multiple devices with AUO panels, even an old panel in a 2013 tablet that's "OK enough where historically I was decently productive on it", fail this test and cause strain when my eyes do this. I associate AUO panels with "consciously having to avoid relaxing my eyes", even if text readability is OK

Therefore, older LG IPS seems to at least have the "most potential". After all my "safe" laptop uses LG IPS. I really believe that somewhere there is another panel like that

Again no verdict at all yet, but generally better first impressions compared to other screens I've tried!

So it's still one of the better screens I've tried, and it gets a surprising amount of "the basics" right, but starting to notice the flaws -- even though it's alright, my "perfect" 2012 panel is still noticeably better compared to this.

Honestly, I will probably keep it "for now" because it's better to have an OK panel in this laptop instead of the terrible Innolux, and I have actually gotten some work done on here.

What this panel gets right is that I can still read text coherently (unlike a lot of other ones I've tried!)

However, there's definitely times where I get some "mild eyestrain" that I simply don't get on my safe panel. I don't think this is because of PWM or inversion, because my safe panel has those at essentially the same amount.

Fortunately though, no "severe" painful eyestrain like the Innolux! But not a totally pleasant experience either.

Here are the issues I've noticed so far:

• I dislike how bright red and blue look with the 100% sRGB gamut. Interestingly, can make these pure colors feel more relaxing with a desaturation preset in NegativeScreen app. But, as white is created by R+G+B together it's harder to change white, definitely white has more "harshness" compared to my safe screen. (This doesn't mean that narrower gamut screens are safe though, as the Innolux was 45% NTSC but it sucked.)

• Starting to lean towards glossy instead of matte. Even though matte is theoretically better it seems like no manufacturer can get it right. As I move my head from left to right I notice that the part of the screen farthest away from my head gets slightly blurrier. Sometimes this effect is caused by other screen problems, but in this case I'm pretty sure that it's directly connected to the matte coating. (Fortunately though, there's no matte rainbow or grain)

• Weird post-processing thing: Dark wallpaper with some glowing elements + a bright window. When I minimize the window, the glowing wallpaper elements "fade into a brighter version" over a split second. (DPST disabled, PSR disabled, ACE disabled, also tried Basic Display Adapter, still happened. Unsure if this is caused by Windows/GPU or the panel.)

• Some kind of LCD overdrive or ghosting is going on, as I can notice colored motion trails even if I disable the green and blue subpixels and only use red. (This is something that to this day, only my safe 2012 panel "gets right", as I don't see colored trails on that one -- it's probably not using overdrive.)

• Strangely, the green subpixels seem to be physically better than the red and blue ones. If I set the screen to only use green pixels, I can tell it immediately becomes easier to read or slightly sharper in a good way. (There's definitely something odd about the red subpixels compared to my safe panel.)

The positives: text is surprisingly readable, I still don't get any "immediate" crazy eyestrain (unlike Innolux), and UI proportions generally feel more "correct" compared to other panels I've tried.

However, I don't think I can recommend this one because I'm still getting some strain in Windows 10. (It's definitely a big step up from Innolux though!)

I'm also still optimistic about trying other LG panels especially glossy ones.

P.S. I actually bought two of this same panel, one open-box (this one) and another used. I will be trying the used version in a couple days to see if there is some variation (even between this exact model).

I will also try earlier 2015 Windows 10 versions to check if the OS is a factor.

qb74 Temporal dithering isn't the main culprit of eyestrain for most people.

i didn't say that temporal dithering was the main problem, i was only trying to demonstrate that temporal dithering is a bit worse for me, compared to mild ~5% depth PWM which doesn't affect me (100% depth strobe-like PWM gives me strain though)

my primary issues with displays aren't related to temporal dithering

QHD also sucks at 13" or 14". I use tons of legacy apps that don't support scaling and they either become blurry or too tiny, and 2x integer scaling creates 720p which is not enough screen space. QHD only works for me at ~15inch or larger, but I've tried 15" laptops and they don't work ergonomically for me (in terms of weight/typing/able to use in tight spaces).

the laptop you mentioned is 15.3" so it makes sense why QHD would work there, but not for smaller laptops IMO

My favorite resolution+size is 1600x900 at 13.3", the size of UI elements is perfect and no scaling is needed, but there are literally only 3 IPS panels with those specs on Panelook, all from 2012-2013 (two LG IPS and one Samsung PLS), and only 1 of those supports eDP. they're super unique because most 1600x900 panels are TN instead of IPS

photon78s software processing or post-processing for displays

it gets stranger, I'm now trying Ubuntu 18.04 instead of Windows 10 1809 and for some reason, on this LG panel it actually feels a LOT better while running native (not VM) Ubuntu. Still not going to go out and say it's great or reccomendable -- but there is so much less of the feeling that things are "glowing bluish around the edges" or "large gray shadows seem to appear to the left and right of vertical divider lines", white backgrounds are less harsh, and there's definitely less false 3D effect too on many photos. Seems to be less strain while reading too.

I am using lossless RealVNC into a macOS desktop in order to compare the same UI elements/images/text across both OSes. Both OSes are run without any color profile.

BTW spatial dithering (but not temporal) is still currently turned on by default in Ubuntu, haven't tried to change that yet. Before, I tried Windows both with and without spatial dithering.

(This means that the UI and fonts of Windows vs. Ubuntu is NOT what I'm comparing here, but instead what the OS decides to do with the colors, edges, and contrast in what should be the "same" lossless VNC session…)

as one example, the orange "Learn More" button on the left sidebar of AskUbuntu (which is being displayed through macOS Chrome inside the VNC session) seemed to pop out from the screen on Windows 10, but I immediately noticed it appears flatter while I'm booted into Ubuntu

for reference I was running 1809 with June 2017 Intel drivers. I also tried disabling features like DPST and PSR on Windows, also disabled multi-plane overlay, I even disabled DWM itself but had no luck…

on the other hand, Ubuntu (at least older versions) is immediately better for this panel. although not sure how much better yet

so this indicates that Windows itself definitely plays into post-processing as well, even 1809

for comparison, the previous Innolux didn't see the same improvement with [native] Ubuntu, but I feel like for the Innolux there was even more weird stuff going on at the LCD panel level. for example Innolux's patent for "Liquid crystal display having image edge enhancement circuit"

finally, Ubuntu doesn't always help, because strangely my otherwise safe 2012 IdeaPad Yoga 13 laptop seems to somehow create mild eyestrain in Ubuntu even though it's always been "consistent enough to confidently say it's great" on Windows 8.1