So, generally I don't think that supplements are miracles. I take saw palmetto because my urologist says "you're an aging Jew, take some of this and maybe we can avoid putting you on flovent... plus you'll sleep better". I take probiotics because of a definitive reason (that I won't get into). Both were advised by physicians. But I've made an exception for Lutein.

Everyone agrees it doesn't HURT, and in my case it seems to HELP an awful lot. I'm taking a standardized extract of 20mg twice daily. It really seems to do a good job. I pay about $15 every 6 weeks (it's always buy one get one free) and I use a reliable brand available at my local supermarket.

It seems to REALLY help. And when I say it helps... it has made my XBox One usable when previously it was not. I can play my favorite games that used to hurt my eyes. Maybe not for 10 hours straight, but much as the dash lights on my car used to be unusable for more than a few minutes even with a yellow tinting and have now become reasonable... this is the same. I truly think it helps.

Will it help everyone? I don't think so. If PWM is your issue, maybe not. It definitively helps increase the amount of blue-light-blocking-and-absorbing pigment in the retina, so if blue light is your issue it should in theory be useful...

But it's worth a shot.

Be aware - the amount in "eye supplements" is shit. It's like 2mg a day. I'm taking 20x that. Also make sure it has Zeaxanthanin in it.

Peace.

    Gurm Worth trying. Whats te product called? In taking macushield but so far no difference, maybe the dosage is small? Daily dosage - 10mg lutein, 10mg meso-zeaxantin, 2mg zeaxantin.
    Could you share your dosage and brand?
    Also how long after taking it did you notice some relief? Can you use stuff that was completely unusable before?

    • Gurm replied to this.

      I tried a 3 month course of lutein treatment, and other "anti blue light pills". Zero impact

        martin It's just a Lutein Supplement from Nature's Bounty which is a pretty reliable brand. I take 40mg a day of Lutein (one 20mg capsule morning and night) with the accompanying amounts of zeaxanthin.

        As for what relief it gives me... it makes all the vaguely uncomfortable devices totally tolerable. It makes formerly unusable devices... tolerable, not good.

        Most importantly I can use my XBox One again, the new generation of games were all hurting my eyes BADLY but this really helps.

          ensete I'm not saying it will work for everyone, but... what pills did you take? And what was the dosage? I find that most of the "blue light" or "eye health" pills have 2-10mg of Lutein, which is FAR less than I take daily. 40mg is perfectly safe, but nothing ever has that much other than standardized extract.

          Gurm How long did it take to get relief after starting Lutein?

            ryans It's hard to say. I notice it in under a week if I forget to refill my pill case. Usually that's the first sign for me that I forgot, is my eyes hurt a little and I go "oh, right - lutein!"

            In order to not forget, I've started putting my probiotics and multivitamin in the pill case (which used to just be allergy meds and supplements) so that I don't forget to take them at least once a day if not twice...

            As for how long it took to kick in... I can't really say. It was gradual and subtle. I'd say by the time I killed the first bottle, for sure?

            This is what I get:

            https://www.amazon.com/Natures-Bounty-Lutein-20mg-Softgels/dp/B00KLCT7K6/ref=sr_1_3_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1516976633&sr=8-3&keywords=nature%27s%2Bbounty%2Blutein&th=1

            They're usually on sale at my local supermarket for $15 for 2, which is the same as the base amazon deal, only I just noticed Amazon changed to $21 for 4 which is a crazy deal so I might have to nab that.

            degen What dosage of astaxanthin did you use? Seems to come in 4mg, 12mg, maybe others.

              astraxanthin apparently blocks DHT and increases testosterone) possibly leading to depression & manboobs.
              https://www.reddit.com/r/Supplements/comments/4f6841/astaxanthin_effect_on_testosterone_any_experiences/

              lots of positive sciency data here though: https://www.slideserve.com/caspar/astareal-astaxanthin-reducing-eye-fatigue

              this looked like the best deal..

              https://www.amazon.com/Astaxanthin-Supplement-Antioxidant-Fettle-Botanical/dp/B01H0T40SG/

              ... just bought

                Lost the last part of your quote there, which seemed to be the best deal? Looks like any adverse effects happen above 2mg/day, but eye health improves all the way up to 12mg/day in a substantive manner... I'm a little torn on this one. I mean, what guy doesn't want breasts, right? ahem

                  reaganry The only human study involves both Saw Palmento and astaxanthin. So who knows how much each compound contributes to the DHT lowering effect. Saw Palmento has been used for years to treat enlarged prostate because of knowledge of this effect.

                  The other study is in-vitro, not even in an animal, and doesn't mean much imo. I honestly take more faith in the couple of anecdotes than in the in-vitro.

                  More reason to be moderate with the dose though.

                  Gurm I take 4 mg because in one study 2 mg was found to reduce inflammation and 8 mg increased inflammation. This study was in humans (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20205737). Also astaxanthin is highly lipid soluble and builds up in the eye tissues over time (weeks), just like lutein. You want the build up in the eye and not a ton of it floating around in your blood. Because of that I think a moderate dose over a long period of time is the best choice.

                  On the topic of the dose dependent effect (in the powerpoint) I think the measuring period is not long enough (28 days in that study) to fully gain the benefit of the lower dose, which will take a longer time to accumulate.

                  It's really easy to overdo any supplement that is lipid soluble and accumulates and eventually turns into toxicity. Think Vit D and A.

                    degen I ordered a highly recommended 5mg version of the supplement, and will give it a couple months. I am also considering cutting the lutein back to 1x20mg a day instead of 2x20mg, although all the literature points to there being no maximum dose toxicity at doses under 100mg... thoughts?

                      Also, lowered DHT levels is pretty much the goalpost for middle aged men. While man-breasts isn't exactly the desired result for everyone (although it might be for some!), prostate shrinkage and reduced balding certainly is... 😉

                      Gurm Donno about toxicity, but I wouldn't take more lutein without also taking more zeaxanthin as well. Zeaxanthin absorbs a slightly different band of blue light and I wouldn't want to crowd it out, although they do have a slightly different distribution in the eye as well.

                      There is also a debate over zeaxanthin vs meso-zeaxanthin. Not sure what to make of it. They may have different properties and most supplement manufactures label their meso-zeaxanthin as zeaxanthin.

                      Found a nice article on the different xanthophylls and the eye:

                      Lutein, Zeaxanthin, and meso-Zeaxanthin: The Basic and Clinical Science Underlying Carotenoid-based Nutritional Interventions against Ocular Disease

                      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4698241/

                      I'll post some choice quotes and pictures with some commentary:

                      meso-zeaxanthin is found in the eye

                      believed to be formed at the macula by metabolic transformations of ingested carotenoids

                      Just in case you were wondering

                      monkey eyes are relatively easier to obtain soon after death compared to human eyes

                      The 3 xanthophylls discussed have varying distribution throughout the eye

                      Near the fovea there is twice as much zeaxanthin and meso-zeaxanthin as lutein; but, in the peripheral retina, this relationship is reversed, and zeaxanthin and meso-zeaxanthin levels are half as much as those of lutein... In the central retina, equal concentrations of lutein, zeaxanthin and meso-zeaxanthin are present; however, the ratio of meso-zeaxanthin to zeaxanthin decreases with the increased eccentricity to the fovea

                      A nice picture of that

                      Getting zeaxanthin and not meso-zeaxanthin in your supplement looks even more important, since meso-zeaxanthin probably naturally occurs in the eye after transformation from lutein

                      This conformational similarity of meso-zeaxanthin to lutein makes it more likely that lutein rather than zeaxanthin is the immediate precursor to meso-zeaxanthin... conversion of lutein to meso-zeaxanthin most likely takes place in the eye

                      This figure shows how xanthophylls neutralize ROS from blue light

                      There is something to be said about reducing unstable omega-6 polyunsaturated fats from your diet and replacing them with omega-3 and monounsaturated fats, which provide stability to cell membranes and with less potential for ROS generation

                      The potential for generation of ROS in the retina is high. The outer retina, especially membranes of the outer segments of the photoreceptors, has high concentrations of polyunsaturated fatty acids that are susceptible to photo-oxidation

                      Cool

                      With aging, the RPE gradually accumulates lipofuscin... There is solid experimental evidence that... a component of lipofuscin, can damage the RPE, is toxic to mitochondria, and induces apoptosis of cultured RPE cells when exposed to blue light... When RPE cells are treated with lutein, this phototoxic effect is reduced greatly... The presence of lutein and zeaxanthin has further been shown to reduce the amount of lipofuscin formed in cultured RPE cells and in vivo

                      Take it with a fatty meal

                      Given their hydrophobic nature, there is evidence that consuming carotenoid-rich foods in the presence of oils or cholesterol may increase their uptake

                      Some answers on the safety of a high lutein dose. 1 mg / kg of bodyweight

                      the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) Panel on Food Additives and Nutrient Sources added to Food established an acceptable daily intake of 1 mg / kg bodyweight / day for lutein preparations derived from marigold

                      Although you could probably take much more if you wanted

                      The no observed-adverse-effect-level (NOAEL) for lutein/zeaxanthin concentrate was determined to be 400 mg/kg bodyweight/day

                      Absorption spectrum (MP is macular pigment)

                      The absorption maximum of lutein is 445 nm, while the maxima of zeaxanthin and meso-zeaxanthin are 450 nm... MP absorbed light between the wavelengths 430 nm and 490 nm, with maximum absorption taking place at ∼460 nm

                      HDL cholesterol transports xanthophylls to the eye. We love our HDL, folks.

                      The Wisconsin hypoalpha mutant (WHAM) chicken, a natural animal model of HDL deficiency, has a >90% reduction in plasma HDL.... When these chickens are fed a high-lutein diet, lutein levels increase in plasma, heart, and liver, but not in retina, suggesting that HDL is critical for delivery of carotenoids to retinal tissue

                      Article then goes on to identify some gene polymorphisms that could impair lutein and zeaxanthin binding in the eye and lead to problems.

                      Primates have very similar eyes to humans

                      RPE are retinal pigment cells, and light must pass through them to reach your photoreceptors.

                      Some more support for omega-3s (n-3 fatty acids)

                      In xanthophyll-free monkeys, they observed a dip in the RPE cell density profile at the foveal center. They also observed a difference in the RPE profile depending upon the level of n-3 fatty acids. Thus, they concluded xanthophylls and n-3 fatty acids are essential for the development and maintenance of RPE cells

                      Article then talks about rodent and avian models, but their eyes aren't similar enough.

                      Very nice

                      There is a growing and evidence-based consensus that MP is important for optimal visual performance because of its blue light-filtering properties and consequential attenuation of chromatic aberration, veiling luminance, and blue haze

                      A picture on the absorption spectrum of macular pigment (which is made up of lutein and zeaxanthin)

                      dev