Majority of users who used Macbooks with Asahi Linux installed did not feel abnormal eye strain

I believe that with Apple Silicon GPUs, the GPU driver is responsible for enabling dithering on the hardware. Asahi Linux, which initially didn’t have a GPU driver, might have been free from dithering-related issues. However, when I installed a version of Asahi Linux last year that included the GPU driver, I noticed it caused me more discomfort compared to macOS with StillColor.

Majority of users who used Macbooks with Windows installed did not feel abnormal eye strain

I haven't worked with Windows on a Mac, but I have worked with Linux on a Mac.

I am currently using the old TN 6bit+FRC monitor because I can't find a suitable replacement for it. Windows and Linux on this monitor are unusable, as is macOS on Intel-based Macs. However, the same version of macOS installed on a Mac with M1 allows me to work with this monitor for 10 hours or more with minimal breaks and almost no discomfort.

When using a TV with a true 8-bit display, I don't see any difference between macOS (Intel Mac, M1 Mac) and Linux (Intel Mac, PC with an Intel ARC GPU). They are all comfortable for the eyes.

In all cases here, dithering on the graphics card side is turned off, and the output is set to 8-bit.

Majority of users who used Macbooks with virtualised non Mac OS installed did not feel abnormal eye strain

I can use Windows with my 6bit+FRC monitor when it's running in Parallels on a MBP M1. In this case, Windows is very comfortable for the eyes, but in this setup, I also do not have any problems with macOS.

Let say we raise hypothesis that Mac OS (Software) Is a primary cause of eye strain within this community.

I think it's both the software and the hardware at the same time. Since software is closely intertwined with hardware. Windows, Linux, and macOS running on Apple hardware will use drivers that may differ from each other. Accordingly, dithering may be present in some cases and absent in others.

Moreover, we all have different levels of sensitivity in our eyes, and we may all have different causes for our issues. For example, many criticize the slightly blurred font in macOS. I use a 24" 1080p monitor with macOS, and it has never bothered me, at least up to and including Sonoma. But I know people whose eyes get very strained when reading text without subpixel smoothing.

Therefore, it is very difficult to determine the true cause of the problems, as there are too many free variables in this equation.

I think something changed a couple years ago with the more aggressive push to support P3 wide color and HDR. My guess is it causes dithering since most displays can’t produce the 10 bit color needed for these color modes. I personally didn’t notice much eye strain with Mac OS until Big Sur came out. I do have issues with OLED phones. But I think that’s different than what I experience on recent lcd laptops because some laptops don’t have pwm.

  • JJTL

  • Post #4

Donux I don't want to sound like I'm poking holes into your hypothesis, but I'm going to advise some caution here.

Majority of users who used Macbooks with Asahi Linux installed did not feel abnormal eye strain

Assuming Linux itself is usable, that assumes there's no funny business going on with firmware or hardware, and some people here have raised concerns of the usability of Asahi.

Majority of users who used Macbooks with Windows installed did not feel abnormal eye strain

Considering alleged rendering issues with recent Windows I'd potentially caution drawing any conclusions from such a setup.

Majority of users who used Macbooks with virtualised non Mac OS installed did not feel abnormal eye strain (this last one is somewhat questionable, as the rendering part is still done by host OS, but since there are reverse cases where mac os cause eye strain even on VNC, remote desktop connections, I feel it could be included also)

I don't know enough about recent Macs or macOS to comment with absolute certainty, but I'd be curious if fullscreen video playback exhibits the some strain issues as "normally" using macOS.

      JTL Majority of users who used Macbooks with Windows installed did not feel abnormal eye strain

      Considering alleged rendering issues with recent Windows I'd potentially caution drawing any conclusions from such a setup.

      Yeah, BTW I tried Windows 10 2004 on a 2016 13" MacBook Pro I was testing last year, and it was not comfortable. In fact macOS was weirdly slightly more tolerable on that hardware which is still pretty strange to me. So Windows did not solve anything at all here.

        JTL there are reverse cases where mac os cause eye strain even on VNC, remote desktop connections

        Disagree with this, if I'm on a good panel with safe PC hardware -- VNCing into macOS being hosted from an M1 Mac is no different from VNCing into Windows aside from which style of text rendering you prefer (which doesn't affect photos).

        The only strange part is that Mac's VNC server sends updates in irregular square blocks in a random order, instead of the whole screen at once or in a consistent pattern which is what most Windows VNC servers do. I can somewhat see how this might cause more discomfort for someone who is motion-sensitive.

        I've also figured out that this can be worked around by VNCing into a second Windows PC's VNC server which then is running a second VNC client into a Mac. This sounds really clunky at first. But, IMO doing this doesn't cause any noticeable performance drop.

        I've found that putting a Windows server "in between" like this prevents you from seeing the Mac's "random updates" because of the extra "buffering" step the Windows server effectively creates.

        I actually prefer this method, as scrolling feels smoother when it's updating all at the same time.

        However, in terms of the actual colors and UI generated by the Mac VNC server, there are no issues with that side of things even if you VNC to the Mac directly.

        The Mac VNC server fortunately doesn't do any post-processing (aside from applying the Mac color-profile/gamma in a primitive way like an image editor would, which can be disabled by setting the Mac to sRGB). It basically just sends a simple screenshot.

        The way motion and screen refreshing looks is the only real difference between VNC servers. That's certainly worth noting though, as it might potentially be what causes it to feel different?

        -

        Side note: macOS uses software-rendered dithering for translucency and shadows around windows, which changes whenever the window moves (but stops moving when the window is still). This could possibly resemble temporal dithering for some people, and DOES appear over VNC!

        However, this is not really an issue IMO -- as it's only used for those two effects.

        Enabling Reduce Transparency, along with disabling macOS window shadows through something like Yabai (or simply keeping windows maximized, if you can't install apps on e.g. a work Mac you need to connect to), will entirely prevent this from showing up on VNC.

            DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs Hi. I would love to try to use my mbp 2015 as my work computer but that it will remotly connect to an m4 mbp so that I work on the 2015 but the actual computer is the new mbp m4. Do you know a good way to do it?

                Talhalpern

                Assuming they are both on the same local network:

                Depending on whether you can install apps on the M4 -- if you can't (but can change system settings), enable Screen Sharing on the M4 in System Settings -> General -> Sharing settings. Then, open the Apple Screen Sharing app (built-in) on your 2015, type in the M4's local IP address, then you should be able to view the M4's screen from your 2015. Make sure to select View -> Full Quality to get rid of the compression artifacts.

                The other options: these will also work on your 2015, but also work on Windows/Linux as well, if you switch from your 2015 in the future. Either a VNC client (I prefer RealVNC Viewer) or NoMachine. Those are the two that I use.

                Enabling Apple's VNC server on the M4 Mac would be under System Settings -> Sharing -> Remote Management -> Computer Settings -> "VNC viewers may control screen with password", set a password there and turn on the Remote Management switch. Then you can connect with e.g. RealVNC Viewer from your better laptop.

                NoMachine would require you to install the NoMachine server app on the M4. Unlike the other two, it is lossy with some compression artifacts, but the advantage is that it's extremely fast on pretty much every network I've tested it on, with no input lag or stuttering unlike most screen sharing apps. Also, the settings can be tweaked to significantly minimize the compression artifacts and improve the image quality. See the "details" link for my NoMachine settings:

                macOS NoMachine Server: MJPEG compression selected, hardware encoding disabled, frame rate set to 30FPS. Software screen dimming app installed (e.g. BetterDisplay with color profile adjustments disabled), dim the Mac desktop to about 96% to work around a NoMachine bug where MJPEG encoding brightens light grays too much.

                NoMachine Viewer: ALL "advanced" display options checked under connection quality settings to disable the auto-adjusting quality stuff. Quality slider set to maximum. (If colors look like they're flickering every time you click, double-check that MJPEG encoding is set on the server since it should prevent that bug)

                (Personally, I wouldn't use another MacBook as the viewer since even the 2015 MBP causes lots of strain for me. But since you're implying that your old 2015 is comfortable for you, I guess you can stick with what's already working. You're actually pretty lucky that you can use a 2015 MBP, compared to most of us here.)

                    Talhalpern Yes, this is fully possible. Using the Apple Screen Sharing app on the 2015 to connect to the M4 would be the best choice for this, as all trackpad gestures (except for three-finger swipes) are supported including smooth scrolling, diagonal scrolling and pinch-to-zoom.

                    For reference, NoMachine also supports horizontal/vertical scrolling and pinch too, however not diagonal scrolling, and the scrolling is in "steps" instead of smooth (which IMO I actually prefer, as smooth scrolling is distracting to me especially when working with text)

                    VNC clients usually only support vertical scrolling.

                    All the solutions I mentioned, Apple Screen Sharing, NoMachine, VNC, should also support all keyboard shortcuts perfectly. BTW the reason why I recommend RealVNC Viewer over other VNC clients is that it correctly recognizes macOS shortcuts like Command+drag, even if you use it from a Windows client, which many VNC clients often have issues with for some reason

                      Talhalpern

                      My current most usable laptop is the ThinkPad T480 with 8th gen Intel. 14", nice keyboard, trackpad is very smooth even coming from a former Mac user, solid build quality and great repairability/upgradeability. Can be found for about only $250 used in great condition!

                      Hoever,, default screen options for this laptop (the stock TN, HD IPS, 2K IPS) all cause strain for me, but the great thing about ThinkPad is that it's extremely easy to replace the screen (you don't even have to take apart the laptop -- all you need to do is disable the battery in the boot menu, remove the bezel and unscrew the screen!)

                      And I found a very comfortable replacement screen: AUO B140XTN02.D. 1366x768 TN panel from 2015. Very different and much more comfortable than the T480's stock TN option.

                      Personally I find it dozens of times more comfortable than ANY MacBook screen (even older Macs from 2008/2009 cause strain for me). 720p resolution of course an adjustment coming from a 1800p Retina MacBook, but I feel like you'll find it much more comfortable than even your 2015!

                      So, my reccomendation is ThinkPad T480 + replace the stock screen with specifically an AUO B140XTN02.D panel

                        DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs Disagree with this, if I'm on a good panel with safe PC hardware -- VNCing into macOS being hosted from an M1 Mac is no different from VNCing into Windows aside from which style of text rendering you prefer (which doesn't affect photos).

                        That was my commenting on Donux's scenarios.

                        And about remote desktop in general, depending on the protocol capabilities and where certain effects are applied on the output "pipeline" it may have an effect, e.g I recall @Gurm claiming that in certain cases the RDP client on a a "good" Windows system connecting to a "bad" system may pass strain onto the "good" system in the context of the RDP session. However I do know the RDP as a protocol can be more complex than passing raw pixel values between a server and client like VNC does.

                            JTL Yeah RDP is much more intricate, more integrated into the OS, I can see how that could create issues. Also apps like NoMachine are set to use hardware encoding/decoding by default, so I disable that on both ends (in addition to checking the specifically-named "Disable post processing" option NoMachine has)

                            However, in my post I was only intending to refer to VNC clients with lossless transmission.

                              I installed nomachine and it working but bad image quality. Will work on settings. Do you know of a similar pkg that allows connection via cable to eliminate any latency? Thx!

                              I do think software plays a critical role.

                              I use a galaxy s22. It's AMOLED, so it does flicker. But it's (almost) completely fine for me. Basically a non issue.

                              Yet both the MacBook Air and pro are big problems. And many recent windows laptops too. For me, I think it's the dithering or any other black magic they're using to display a billion colors. Wish it could be turned off.

                              I think the hypothesis is a good start, but needs to be filled out with more specifics. What are the plausible factors or differences between macOS and other operating systems? In the StillColor discussion, there was mention of the macOS graphics pipeline internally using high-color-depth (12 IIRC, or even higher) buffers, which inherently requires either clamping or dithering to display on a physical LCD. There were also discussions regarding font rendering, smoothing/bluriness, antialiasing (especially subpixel antialiasing, or lack thereof), etc. which distinguishes the appearance of macOS from other systems. Even as far as general flickering or temporal dithering, some have argued that these "features" are simply harsher or more aggressive on macOS, especially on more recent Mac hardware.

                              As far as Asahi Linux, I tried it when I owned an M2 TB MacBook Pro briefly, and I found it to not be an improvement over macOS. Possibly the issue was the reintroduction of temporal dithering (versus disabling it on macOS via StillColor), but I suspect the main trigger was the LCD backlight itself (KSF phosphor with a harsh red undertone).

                                macsforme

                                but needs to be filled out with more specifics

                                Here we come up against the fact that macOS is a closed operating system, and we don't know many things about how it is structured internally.

                                there was mention of the macOS graphics pipeline internally using high-color-depth (12 IIRC, or even higher) buffers

                                This isn't something specific to macOS. In general, when it comes to signal processing, it's often more effective to work with higher-dimensional data and then reduce it to lower dimensions at the end of the process. This approach helps minimize rounding errors during calculations. Since most operating systems perform a lot of image processing, and GPUs handle much of this work, it makes sense for GPUs to process higher-dimensional data as well. The conversion to lower dimensions typically happens in the final stages of the GPU's pipeline, and the algorithms used for this process are more dependent on the GPU hardware than the operating system itself (on the driver's side, it is possible to select these algorithms from the list available in the hardware, but in any case, the processing itself will be performed on the hardware side).

                                I want to point out that the presence of such the conversion in certain hardware does not necessarily have a negative impact on the eyes. The impact on the eyes depends on the types of algorithms used in the process. Unfortunately, we lack are specific knowledge about these algorithms to fully understand the whole picture.

                                There were also discussions regarding font rendering, smoothing/bluriness, antialiasing (especially subpixel antialiasing, or lack thereof),

                                Apple disabled subpixel font smoothing (also known as subpixel anti-aliasing) starting with macOS Mojave, which was released in 2018. The company shifted to grayscale font smoothing instead. This change was made in part because subpixel rendering is less effective on modern high-resolution Retina displays, which have a much higher pixel density compared to older screens.

                                When choosing a HiDPI monitor, this problem is resolved. I’m currently away from home. I’m using an iPad Pro (iPadOS 14) 2017 as a monitor (Sidecar) for my MacBook. On the Retina display, the font looks perfect. But on my low-DPI display, there’s a slight blur. But subjectively, it has no effect on my eyes.

                                I have a hypothesis that this might be a plus for 6-bit+FRC monitors. Because this might slightly reduce the activity of the display's FRC module, as complex smoothing algorithms can increase the load on pixel brightness management. At least in Linux, using Grayscale font smoothing (or completely disabling it) strains the eyes less when reading text on such monitors.

                                I can’t quite recall any other major issues I’ve had with macOS on my M1, aside from the display challenges - which, for those with sensitive eyes, can be pretty frustrating in most cases. That said, I might be forgetting something important.

                                    WhisperingWind Apple disabled subpixel font smoothing (also known as subpixel anti-aliasing) starting with macOS Mojave, which was released in 2018. The company shifted to grayscale font smoothing instead. This change was made in part because subpixel rendering is less effective on modern high-resolution Retina displays, which have a much higher pixel density compared to older screens.

                                    I read about this when Mojave was released. I also noticed firsthand that text was much harder to read on standard-DPI monitors starting with Mojave, with one of the worst scenarios being trying to read a PDF document in Safari (could have been a Safari issue in theory). Going beyond my previous point (and I'm not sure where this started or if it was always the case), macOS text on standard-DPI monitors seems categorically fuzzy, and I've seen examples within Apple's own app UIs making me suspect that macOS text rendering has no concept of physical pixel geometry. I frequently saw single-pixel-wide text elements (for example, for the letters 'j,' 'i,' etc.) seemingly sitting between two pixels, such that two pixel columns were at 50% instead of a single pixel column at 100%. The default Terminal font and size was awfully blurry for this reason and I had to increase the size (they also got rid of the ability to disable antialiasing in the Terminal in Monterey or maybe earlier, before restoring it in Ventura). The Time Machine preference pane in Monterey also had horribly blurry text for the "Back Up Automatically" (IIRC) text, to cite another specific example.

                                    As you pointed out, this is inconsequential on high-DPI screens. However, if I am correct about macOS pixel geometry unawareness for text rendering, then the macOS blurry text issue on standard-DPI screens goes beyond subpixel versus grayscale antialiasing methods.

                                    When choosing a HiDPI monitor, this problem is resolved.

                                    For this reason, when I upgraded to an Apple silicon MacBook Pro I tried practically every available high-DPI 1080p external monitor (LG 24UD58-B, LG 24MD4KL-B, and Dell P2415Q), and all were uncomfortable (this was prior to StillColor, so quite possibly the aggressive Apple silicon temporal dithering was to blame). The built-in MacBook display was equally or more horrible on the mini-LED 14-inch MacBook Pro, and was where all my vision problems started. I ultimately reverted to an Intel Mac with a standard-DPI screen, but my vision was never the same after that.

                                        macsforme

                                        Which monitor did you end up choosing?

                                        Over the past year, I’ve tested 8 monitors, but none of them worked for me: BenQ GL2480, BenQ GL2450HM, Samsung Odyssey G5 G55C S27CG550EI, ASUS ROG Strix XG259CMS, Philips 241V8L/01, Titan Army P27A2R, BenQ PD2705Q, Dell P2422H. The testing was done on Linux and macOS (Apple Silicon Mac, Intel Mac). For now, I’m sticking with my old BenQ GL2450 (TN, 6Bit+FRC), which for some unknown reason doesn’t cause discomfort. Interestingly, although the BenQ GL2480 and BenQ GL2450HM use exactly the same panel as my BenQ GL2450, they come with different scaler models.

                                            WhisperingWind I use a variety of older screens. My main laptop is 2012 13-inch MacBook Pro, and for occasional gaming I use an Acer XB241h (AUO 120Hz panel from 2012). Both of these I can tolerate for a few hours before feeling mild symptoms (nothing as harsh as modern screens and/or Apple silicon). At work, my main screen I believe is a Dell P2213f. So in summary, mostly screens with TN panels from the early 2010s.

                                              dev