How I Finally got out after 1 year 10 Months of going through hell,

Faham

Hello everyone,

Thank you so much for all the people on this forum, you guys really helped me to get through this.

Don't mind the grammar and spelling errors, please focus on the message :-)

I work in tech/design/programming so screens are essential part of my life.

For the past 1 year and 10 months I have struggled with my eye strain, couldn’t use my work laptop, smartphone, anything with artificial lights on it, after 10 to 15 minutes, my eyes felt extreme pain, dryness, dizziness , and later heavy migraines with aura sometime. Still tried to work. At night eyes became extremely dry like there is a grainy feel to the eye and bad migraines.

Issues : Dryness, Pain , Eyes feel heavy in the morning, after a cup of tea/coffee, migraine trigger again. Anxiety, heavy on Adrenaline panic feel, my family thought I went insane. It was hell man, some nights I cried. Visited most eye specialists in my local area, even the top ones, everyone told me it’s just dry eyes, and vision was 20/20.

Device History :

Dell inspiron 15 3521 TN Panel, I worked on it for 12+ Hours daily no issue. It was perfect. It dead 2 Years ago, and the struggle begins . (Reason : Old TN panel was low on blue light and dithering)
Dell Vostro 2520 : TN Panel, this one was the starting point. Dry eyes/headaches begins. (issue : Dithering)
Macbook Pro 2015 : I couldn’t work on it for more than 10minutes, something was bit off. (issue : Dithering)
Dell SN 2721 HN: IPS 75 Hz : Heavy dry eyes, migraines. (issue : Dithering)
Lenovo ThinkPad Yoga 370 2 in 1: This one messed my eyes so bad, 5 minutes in , eye got twisted, like real twist and nausea feel. (issue : PWM Dimming Like Crazy)
Google Pixel 3A : hell man, 5 minutes in my eyes got burned. (issue : PWM Dimming)
HP Pavilion Laptop PC 15-eg3018 Series IPS : my head got twitsted and almost threw up everyday, it was unbearable. (issue : Extreme Dithering)
Lenovo L27h-4A : God, finally I found “The One”. (Reason: No Dithering, No PWM, Better Pixel per inch than 1080p monitors)

Here is what I learned through my 1 year 10 months of hell and research, like a mad scientist.

Replaced all the Flickering LED on my house. Use smartphone camera in slow motion to test LEDs ( test both 1x and 2x to check if the led light is flickering, same with laptop, phone, if its flicker , remove it immediately)
No PWM Dimming Screens : The Lenovo and Google Pixel were the worst devices I’ve ever used in my life, This is the reason. No OLED Phones/Laptops, Only LCD. Buy laptop with DC Dimming tech. (also some Moto phones like G75 are known for the sensor flickering on their top , like the proximity infrared, these can also hurt your eyes )
No Temporal Dithering+FRC Screens : HP was the worst on this it was a 6 bit panel, so it used extreme dithering. Also no Mediatek/Exynos phones, they use heavy dithering, even tried low end Samsung , but couple of minutes in , eyes began to burn. No integrated intel graphics. Some Nvidia, Mac M3 etc have option to turn of dithering. I used a software ‘Ditherig” mentioned in this forum, it worked on my HP, but only could use the laptop for 2 hours.
No coffee/tea in the morning
No Sugar in the morning
Warm water + towel compress every night : it can activate the oil glands on eye. Also clean the eye lid with towel
Bought Crizal Prevencia glass : anti glare, low blue light filter (only filter out unhealthy blue light) around 100 USD
Bought a true 8 bit Lenovo panel. NO Temporal dithering , the perfect screen. around 280 USD
No screen 2 hour prior to sleep.
If felt dryness, never wash the eyes, close and wash.
Also some food can cause dry eyes, like high sodium rich food, fried chicken, etc
Used Iris Mini (small software) to reduce the brightness to 75% and color temperature to 5000K. It's perfect

Some tips I learned from Dr.Huberman Labs : Get sunlight daily for 20 minutes, Vitamin D is essential for tear production, also looking far away object daily makes eye muscles relax, so if you are someone using screen for long hours , scheduling 20 minutes sunlight out time is super important for the long term eye health.

Now, I’m back the game, I can sit around 12 Hours like I did in the past, man it was a hell of a ride, I though I’d never come back to the profession, since my profession is on software, tesing & failing I figured it out like a mad man. Only aftermath is I got some weired looking eye floaters in my eyes, they are slowly fading away, Like Ethan Hunt (Mission impossible ) says I. Will. Figure. It. Out. it was my whole philosphoy behind this, doctors couldnt fix it because this is more tech than medical issue. So anyone struggling with your eyes and doctors said "nah you are good" they are telling the truth, this is technology causing the issue. So please take care guys, if you have any questions, please ask, I'll try to answer them. Maybe my experience can help some people , I really believe in this.

It's been around 3 weeks since I switched to true 8 bit monitor, so far everything is great :-)

Thank you so much

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

Faham

What is the computer, specific OS version, and GPU that you are connecting to the monitor?

Also, which cable (HDMI, direct USB-C, or DisplayPort)?

Knowing both of these is essential for many users here who want to try re-creating a setup.

(Also, what is your current phone, or are you still trying to find a usable phone?)

Donux

Faham I would add: 1) Use ethernet cable if you can, not wifi. 2) Human brain does not really automatically separate what is real and what as fake or artificial. So its good to remind yourself that everything is bullshit - a madness created by other humans (electronics, software, programming languages, culture, languages etc). Spending time in nature, could allow to connect to what is real. And I agree that general trend is - more dithering, more PWM, hence this "old is good" type if thinking. Also animals in general is a good place to learn from since they do not have this brain that creates various manifestations neuroticisms in us.

Rikl

Faham Any chance you could try the Macbook on that monitor?

simplex

What is your lenovo screen model ?

Faham

simplex It's Lenovo L27h-4A 27 inch, 1440p Monitor, True 8bit. There are some HP omen monitor as well(OMEN 24 - 23.8 (780F0AA) 165Hz ), The trick is use chatGpt to get the model brochure PDF file and look for color depth: Lenovo and HP uses "True 8 bit" and "8 Bit With FRC" explicitly.

simplex

Faham

Thank you! Very nice to hear, you find solution!

p.s. led strain 🙂

compUterscUter

Faham When you connect the moniter to the laptop does the laptop screen show up on the moniter or do you have to use an app or something? I've never connected a moniter to a laptop. How do you use the laptop mouse if you can't see where you are on the laptop screen? Can you do anything you want on it without problems? Like watch tv? Thanks for your tips!

AshX

Thanks for sharing your story. I also own a 2015 15” MBP and it is uncomfortable when using it for a long period of time. I believe this flickering that is particularly noticeable on gray colors is what was probably making it uncomfortable for you. You can see a 240 fps slow motion video of this flicker here: https://streamable.com/sxkrio

It seems like this is some really bad backlight control interacting with TCON FRC. Curious what your thoughts are. A lot of Apple LCD’s use this, and I’ve noticed it on a bunch of PC laptops as well as televisions.

Faham

AshX You are on point, I also tested with Gray wallpapper.

here is temporal dithering action : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9AZqJH-U-U

Dithering is technically pixel level flickering, individual pixels flicker so that the display can fake more colors. And as someone who already got tired of home led lights, Mac made it even worse.

These can make eyes and nerves overwhelming level of simulation, hence the anxiety and dizziness feel.

AshX

Faham

It’s very interesting because to see dithering without a microscope is quite rare, yet I have detected this flicker on many devices: 2015 15” MBP, 2019 iMac 4K, M2-M4 MBA, iPad Airs, and others. It is still present even in Safe Mode which should not happen with GPU dithering, but if the TCON is applying FRC, then I suppose in theory it would be possible for this to exist even in Safe Mode, especially since MacOS uses a gray background in that mode. Stillcolor (Apple Silicon) and SwitchResX (Intel/AMD Macs) have no impact on this flicker.

I have experienced the same with this flicker and GPU dithering. I honestly don’t even think we should call this “Eyestrain” because as you said, it affects the nervous system and therefore the brain. I didn’t have a problem tolerating this until I got COVID. There is no way to disable FRC on most of these laptops. I suppose an external monitor is the only possibility if you can ensure it is true 8-bit. Very unfortunate that Windows seems to have started utilizing these techniques, following Apple’s lead. It wouldn’t be hard to add an accessibility option to disable dithering and FRC in settings.

Faham

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs Current Laptop : HP Pavilion Laptop PC 15-eg3018, 13th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-1335U With Integrated Intel Irix XE graphics connected to Lenovo Monitor through USB C. Windows 11 Version 24H2 OS Build 26100.4652

Phone : No phone currently, waiting for a good IPS Lcd phone With Snapdragon 6/7 Series, fingers crossed. Most budget phones are moved to AMOLED.

Faham

AshX Yes, I read somewhere, PWM & Dithering only affect <10% of the population, if Im recalling correctly. Very unfortunate these big companies don't even care. TCON: oh got it. Similar to how low end circuit cause LED to flicker.

Nervous system : exactly, some nights, I even doubted I'm gone insane, couldn't even think straight, only people who experienced will know this. Very hard on brain and also mental health.

I think only true 10 bit professional monitors are the best option, but they are very expensive. And need a powerful CPU,GPU to drive them.

PWM : The funny thing is that top 2 brands, Apple and Samsung are still on low frequency PWM dimming , even on their flagship phones. While chinese brands like Vivo, Honor, etc are way up the game with around 4320Hz dimming, (still not tried if it works or not).

AshX

Faham

The more I read about the TCON Apple uses, made by Parade Technologies, and analyze schematics and tear downs of their screens the more it becomes apparent just how interconnected backlight control is with the TCON and also explains why even older Macs exhibit this very aggressive and visible flickering. It does not inspire confidence in terms of finding a way to program the TCON to not utilize FRC.

Faham

AshX you are so deep into this technically :-) appreciate you sharing the knowledge.

StaticLCD

AshX are they programmable in principle?

AshX

Faham

It’s thanks to a lot of wonderfully technically minded and intelligent folks here and on Reddit! I by no means am a programmer but as you’ve experienced, dealing with this whole ordeal will motivate you to learn and find a solution!

Faham

AshX 100%

Faham

Donux ha ha sometimes I also think like this, get rid of all electronics and live in the woods.

Faham

Donux Unfortunately I sold it. I was tired of it.

randomboolean

Faham Thanks for sharing your story and glad you are back in the game! I'm curious about your IRIS XE laptop, any special settings, ditherig.exe or anything else you've adjusted in the system?

Faham

randomboolean No, the laptop is connected to the monitor always.(0 brightness, 0 contrast for monitor) So laptop screen stays off. Only app I use is 'Iris Mini' with brightness 75%, and Temperature 5000K. Even 0 brightness was bit too much for my eyes, so is use Iris.

One thing I forgot to mention is monitor contrast ratio can also play an important role, usual monitors are 1000:1 . Fortunately, the Lenovo one has 1500:1 contrast ratio. So we get pure blacks and whites .

(When I have to use the HP laptop screen, I keep running 'Ditherig' app with 'disable all ditherig on ) , movies and media will look bit noisy, like gradients are broken. But it helps me to reduce the strain for around 2 hour. Then a break ,Facewash, look far, back to work 2 hour again loop. Contrast 0, Brightness 64 on intel control center, here laptop fn key brightness is still zero. This gives a bit washed out look. But it's comfortable. This value is a result of my continous testing & failing. But it depend on the Laptop, my HP is Glossy screen. So it will be different for Matte screens. Tip is test different values till you feel like screen is good, I can read comfortably.And screen should look like it is part of your room , like in brightess, say similar to a open book white page in that room, Then go with the values for a day.

if you want the links, let me know.