My problems with LED screens and modern screens are exactly like you've heard here a million times, so I won't bother you with those details. My story is exactly the same.

However, the problem is not related to your eyes, although you will feel eyestrain. The problem is that the screens are causing mild seizure activity in your brain. This is why people often have other symptoms such as brain fog, trouble concentrating, dizziness, increased deja-vu, problems with other light sources, etc. It's also why after prolonged exposure to screens that cause irritation, many people exhibit photo sensitivity similar to forms of epilepsy that sometimes lasts for months. If it was just eyestrain, your eyes would recover in a day or less.

I promise you that if everybody here got an EEG test for epilepsy, many would show a positive test result. This is a different type of seizure and epilepsy so you will most likely have no previous symptoms or signs.

Now while this may sound troubling, it actually has a plus side. If enough people realize these screens are triggering epileptic type responses, the manufactures will have to take it more seriously, as seizure activity in the brain is measurable. If we all continue to call it eyestrain the problem will always be ignored and the only hope of fixing it will be if some new technology just happens to not have this problem. However, it's most likely that newer screens will be even worse as they come out.

So if you are having serious symptoms where even a few moments of screen time causes you problems, you need to schedule an EEG. Tell your doctor you are having mental symptoms when looking at screens and you think it's from the flashing. They will order an EEG.

If the results are positive, the doctor may prescribe anti-seizure medication. I suggest you DO NOT take that route, but the choice is yours.

Bottom line, a good number of people have a very mild epileptic response that only happens when exposed to modern screens. They will have had no other symptoms their entire life, so would never suspect this is the cause.

Also, I believe more people have this issue than even realize it. They just chalk it up as eye strain or maybe they don't need to use screens as much. But if you read Mac forums and other places, this is not that obscure, and I bet 20% of people have this to some degree and just figure it's their eyes.

    What evidence do you have for this theory?

    And how would we test for it - I would assume you'd need a trigger alongside the EEG?

      AgentX20 And how would we test for it - I would assume you'd need a trigger alongside the EEG?

      Yes

        AgentX20 When you go for an EEG test looking for this specific response, they put a mask over your eyes like VR goggles, and flash patterns of light then measure the activity of your brain. The testing facility provides the trigger.

        It's a very easy test, you basically rest on a couch and they flash various patterns for a few minutes then you leave. It's not invasive or painful in anyway.

          I would also like to add, this is a "threshold" issue. By that I mean there is a threshold of irritation that once crossed, causes symptoms. If you can find a way to drop under that threshold, the problem goes away. That's also why one solution for one person does not work for another. Because you just found a way to drop it below your own threshold. The other person may need to eliminate more issues to fall below the threshold that causes symptoms for them.

          But it does come down to flickering/frame rate/pulsing. If your eyes are getting sore after a just a few minutes, it means they are trying to process pulsing light images, which means your brain is also recognizing those flashes as well. Your eyes respond to your brain, so if your eyes are overloaded within a few minutes, your brain is as well, and that's what leads to the change in brainwave activity similar to a seizure.

          If your eyes are processing flashes enough to cause them to be overloaded, your brain is doing the exact same thing. They are not separate. Your eyes don't process anything as they are just a lens, your brain does all the processing. So your brain is the one recognizing the flickering, not your eyes.

          So, if you have a very mild epileptic condition that has never come up before, when you stare at a screen, you are basically trying to read under a strobe light and the condition shows itself. Older screens were much more basic, so they never crossed that threshold. Modern screens have all types of pulsing, different streaming and OS processing causes different frame rates, increased pixel density, etc.

          • diop replied to this.

            I once did such a test in a neurological clinic, but sadly their test equipment wouldn't allow frequencies higher than like 40 Hz. I asked them to go higher but it was not possible. They didn't find anything unusual.

              KM Thanks for the post. Yes, some testing facilities only go to 40hz, some are equipped to go to 150hz or more though but a are less common.

              Also, these tests are only about 50% successful in catching changes in brainwaves, even in people with outward symptoms of traditional epilepsy. This is why I feel we need a good number of people suffering from these LED screens to get tested. If about 10% get a positive result during the testing, that's enough to confirm this is indeed the issue. It will also mean manufacturers of video cards and displays will have to address the issue, since it will clearly be a medical issue at that point.

              Also, if people do decide to get tested, make sure you are currently experiencing symptoms. The whole point is to try to reproduce the issue. So if you are well rested and have been using a problem-free monitor setup, you will probably test negative. You want to get tested when you are feeling the most symptoms as the goal here is to reproduce the symptoms in the clinical setting and be able to record the results.

              Most clinics will instruct you do this, for example they might suggest to arrive at the test site while tired if possible. But some don't go through this extra step of informing people so I figure I would mention it here.

              Also, for people considering getting tested, this is for those having significant symptoms as those are the people most likely to test positive in a clinical setting. So if after being exposed to a problematic screen you have mood changes, brain fog, clenching of jaw/teeth, sensitivity to other light sources, sensitivity to striped patterns, nausea, feelings of deja vu, impulsive thoughts, etc., then you would be best suited to get tested.

                KM their test equipment wouldn't allow frequencies higher than like 40 Hz.

                Is not that flicker rate visible by the naked eye?

                How about looking at a "bad" smartphone display while carrying out the test?

                  screenjunky "when you stare at a screen, you are basically trying to read under a strobe light and the condition shows itself."

                  I know that CRT's refresh by the line being drawn from top to bottom (albeit crazy fast) but never caused me any issues, again because the whole area of the screen wasn't flashing at once.

                  CCFL screens were fine for me also, and LED to an extent (just blue light spike that is frustrating).

                  "Modern screens have all types of pulsing, different streaming and OS processing causes different frame rates, increased pixel density, etc."

                  There has to be R&D and QA on this tech before millions of units are shipped for use. Why is everybody now sitting in front of a 'strobe light'? Even a four year old would say that's not good for you.

                  Hypothetically, let's say we all get EEG's with the problematic stimulus nearby, and it shows a change in brainwaves, we all test positive for epilepsy or certainly bad symptoms. What is the solution? We would only be offered medication. There is no tech that is comfortable to use. It could be grounds to start legal action / media attention though.

                      yeah, this is my fear - all the classic symptoms/triggers. there are inexpensive home eeg systems you can rig up get now.

                      diop With tech products that are basically commodities like laptops, screens, and phones, there is very little testing. These things are built for specs. The company that sells them, the suppliers, the assemblers, all buy parts based on specs. A few prototypes are sent out but mainly to see the form factor.

                      A perfect example is the recent Macbook Pro and their keyboards. Nobody liked the keyboards and found them impossible to use. This shows nobody really tested the product beyond just inspecting how it looked and the specs. Same with the new Samsung phone that folds. There was no testing done on that.

                      As far as the response from companies, this is a little different case as it's a specific set of medical symptoms caused by a specific type of product. It also appears that using the screens for these users causes problems in other aspects of life that they had no issues with before and the effects can last for months, years, or maybe for life.

                      However, I believe several companies already know about this issue. That's why newer screens have "eye care" settings and they are adding the f.lux type filters to all devices. They know there is a problem but there is little incentive for them to investigate it. They make money by offering new screens with better specifications, not by fixing their old screens. The market just wants to hear higher numbers, like higher resolutions or more colors. So the makers of these screens are using any techniques they can to reach these specification and eye strain isn't even on the list of things they care about, even though it should probably be first on the list. Phones, laptops, and screens are sold based on the specs they have and how they look at first glance.

                      If they were forced to address the problem under threat of liability, they could probably find the culprit within a month or two.

                        martin Several people in a different community (gamers) as well as myself got tested and we got 2 positive test results out of 5 people. These were all life long gamers, having been exposed to all types of flashing lights their entire lives with no symptoms.

                        As I said before, the tests are not 100% perfect at catching the symptoms during the test. However, a positive test is always accurate. So in other words, the test may not always catch it, but when it does, it is 100% accurate as to being mild seizure activity.

                        It should be very uncommon for an adult with no previous symptoms to suddenly test positive. That's why I said earlier that even if only 5-10% of people with this issue test positive after having a lifetime of no symptoms, that is significant proof this is the issue.

                            screenjunky so you have a positive result for epilepsy? Did you also get tested for heterophoria by an optometrist?

                                martin Yes.

                                I went to several eye doctors and got several different forms of glasses and examinations. I never specifically asked about heterophoria, but I was never diagnosed with it.

                                I'm sure for some people that may be the issue, or fixing that might be enough to drop below the threshold to have symptoms. However, most everybody with this issue has been to countless eye doctors, so I would assume if it was an eye issue it would have been uncovered by some of those thousands of people by now.

                                I'm not an expert on heterphoria but it seems to be a misalignment of the two eyes when at rest. So I would think simply covering one eye while working on a computer should alleviate the symptoms.

                                But I feel people should still look into the condition you mentioned if they feel it may benefit them or if those symptoms more closely match their own.

                                    screenjunky I am writing this because I got serious progress by treating my heterophoria. In combination with glasses that fix shortsightedness in one eye (contributing to eye teaming issues, as the better eye is preferred) I can now use iphones that previously would trigger pain in few seconds. I am also nearing end of my therapy and was working on few macs for couple hours with mild symptoms afterwards. Photo work and video is good, reading the most difficult. I still cant tolerate antialiased fonts though, they seem to really trigger my issue of eye teaming.

                                    It is possible that I could also have underlying epilepsy, and that it is triggered by spasms in the eye muscles and nerves because of my heterophoria, but two of such rare conditions at once seem unlikely to me.

                                    I recommend you find a good oprometrist and get checked for heterophoria just to be sure. Eye patch doesnt help, for reasons yet not completely understood, eye teaming defficiencies can influence even one-eye work - I trained accomodation for each eye separately in the beginning, and it was very insufficient.

                                    If everyone had confirmed heterophoria it would be enough for a medical proof that the systems are somehow bad. However its very unexplored topic and epilepsy would sound more serious and better in pushing for change, unfortunately that might not be the case.

                                      I will do this EEG test. I'm not in a rush but hopefully My doctor can get me in for one in a few months. I find it interesting because I have usually found things that are above my threshold like my plasma TVs. I own 7 of them. Also I have had success with flicker free OLED which there hasn't been a lot of them. Yotaphone 2 gives me no issues and the Samsung S2 was the same. I feel that DC dimmed OLED will solve problems for some people on this forum. I thought I was onto something with BFI on the Samsung quantum dot but it starts to get to me after awhile. It's probably the best monitor I have used but it has nothing on OLED. I would buy an LG OLED but they are too expensive. I'm interested in all these DC dimmed OLED phones. I think there is six of them now. I just don't want to waste hundreds or thousands of dollars when I bought my current phone for 200. I will post results when I get some.

                                      a month later

                                      JTL Interesting read. I think an important part of that is the aversion towards the offending light source described. I wrote about this in another post, and many people here have that same instant aversion towards offending screens. That response can be considered a pre-seizure activity as the brain is now aware that those sources have negative effects, the same way people instantly avoid certain foods after becoming sick because of them.

                                      What people with bad symptoms of LED strain often describe are similar or almost exactly like pre-seizure symptoms. Face twitching or muscle twitches, brain fog, anxiety or depression, sudden drop in energy, etc.

                                      You'll also notice a lot of people say they felt "off" after spending time with an offending screen and it can take a day or two recover.

                                      Just to be clear, having these issues does not mean you will have a physical seizure so I don't want to alarm anyone. In fact, you will probably never have an issue with this in any other aspect of your life and you do not have what is considered "traditional" epilepsy. But these screens seem to cause a similar reaction, although at a lower intensity of symptoms, it is still a similar mechanism. But because they never reach the level of a full seizure, nobody ever goes to see a doctor.

                                      Also, just to add this probably does not describe everybody with eye strain. I'm sure a segment of the people here may just have untreated eye problems. However, if you have the more severe symptoms and your eyes have been fully tested, it is probably an issue similar to photo sensitive epilepsy.

                                      --Thanks for posting the article.

                                      • diop replied to this.
                                      • AGI likes this.

                                          screenjunky My definition of eye strain is literally eye pain, eye discomfort, trouble focusing after typically a prolonged period of close-up vision, regardless of the source - a paperback book might give you eye strain after a long enough reading session.

                                          If that was the only problem, font changes and brightness levels / prescription glasses would have cured most visitors to this site.

                                          I think this issue is more likely as you mention, the neurological effects of using this modern tech. Fatigue, dizziness, unsteadiness, brain fog - all symptoms that simply did not exist for me prior to 2012, regardless of which device I was using.

                                          Therefore I point my finger at the technology provoking symptoms out of the more sensitive users. If it is a low-level form of epilepsy, are we all going to be given medication to reduce symptoms, rather than change the offending technology?

                                              dev