Hello all, I've been a Windows 7 user for the past 10 years and with it reaching it's end of life come early next year I've had to decide what OS I will be moving to. I'm not a huge fan of Windows 10 with all the telemetry it does, so I've decided what I'm going to do is move to Linux as my main everyday OS, and dual boot Windows 10 for gaming only. I've always disabled Cleartype in Windows as I preferred the sharp single pixel width of fonts such as Arial, Verdana, etc. I do keep "font smoothing" on though which does apply some antialising to particular fonts such as the UI font (Segoe UI) and various others. Having Cleartype disabled though does affect some websites that have fonts that were definitely designed with Cleartype in mind. For example, the "New" reddit font renders really poorly without Cleartype. Luckily most websites I visit still look fine without Cleartype. So now on to where my eye strain started. After playing around in the various Linux distros to see which desktop environment was most comfortable for me, I ended up choosing Xubuntu and installed that. One of the first things I had to do was mess with the font settings, as I've found out I'm super sensitive to RGB subpixel rendering which seems to be enabled by default on all the distros I tried. I can see the color fringes on all small fonts and get almost immediate eyestrain with it enabled. After switching to only grayscale anti-aliasing and turning font hinting from Slight to Full I really liked how the fonts were rendering. Sharp and clean. After a few hours though is when I started to notice eyestrain and a headache coming on. When I jumped back over to Windows the problem immediately subsided. So I decided to dig deep into the various font settings I could try in Linux. First I calibrated my display in both Linux and Windows with my i1 Display Pro to D65, 2.2 gamma, at a monitor brightness of 120 cd/m2. This was to rule out the gamma as possibly being the culprit of the eyestrain which I know can cause it. I then installed the MS fonts to see if it's just the font type I'm more used to. I set Segoe UI as my system font and went into Firefox and set the defaults to the same as Windows (Arial, Times New Roman, Courier New). The eyestrain remained. Even setting particular fonts in fontconfig (Arial, Verdana, etc) to not use any anti-aliasing was still giving me eye strain. I went a step further and installed the Freetype Infinality patches that have "Windows like" settings. No change. Still got eyestrain. It's like there is something imperceptible going on that's causing my eyestrain. I than started looking for other possible sources of the problem such as the highly talked about dithering. I'm not even sure what exactly it is, or if it even affects my particular issue with fonts? I tried disabling it in Nvidia X Server Settings, but the setting doesn't seem to stick. After I close and reopen Nvidia Settings, it gets set back to Enabled. So after trying everything I could think of, I decided to just stop fiddling with it, as the eyestrain was getting pretty bad at this point. But now I'm starting to wonder if the problem is psychological. Maybe I just need to toughen up and push through the eye strain in Linux for a week and my eyes/brain will adjust. Similar to the effect when you get a new stronger prescription of eyeglasses and life sucks for a few days until you get used to them. Maybe that's all the issue is since I've been looking at the same fonts/rendering in Windows for the last decade. And if that does happen to be the case, I'm wondering if I'd get eyestrain when jumping back to Windows? My main monitor is a 27" 1920x1080 IPS 60hz display. I've been meaning to upgrade to a 27" 1440p@144hz panel for a while now. I know that the increased DPI would improve the font rendering somewhat. Obviously jumping to 4K would be even better as far as font rendering goes. But since I game, I don't want to spend a fortune on GPU(s) that can push high framerates at 4K. It's definitely a weird phenomenon I'm going through with this, as I've NEVER had issue with eye strain using my PC. I'm curious if anyone else has had this happen to them when switching operating systems? Thanks for anyone taking the time to read this, and I'm happy to hear any opinions/thoughts on this issue. **EDIT:** The more I read about dithering, the more I'm wondering if it IS the problem I'm having. I got to figure out why I can't seem to be able to disable it in Nvidia Settings.

@"Wallboy"#p11512 Hi there, welcome. I have tested out Linux distros for years. The main reason I never switched to Linux was due to the eye strain. I had issues as far back as 2007, when testing out distros I would notice the display seemed a bit 'harsher' compared to (then) Windows XP. In hindsight I got the same symptoms that I get now with any OS using dithering. After 10 minutes eyes feel heavy and something just feels 'wrong' about the output. Before I discovered this forum, "What's wrong with me?" came to mind a lot. If this forum didn't exist and nobody else had these symptoms, at that point I would consider something psychologically wrong with me. Thank god there is a community here, we're not the ones with the problem. Dithering in a nutshell is the rapid (very rapid) adjustment of adjacent color values to simulate the color in-between which cannot ordinarily be displayed. So when we use any OS with dither (specifically temporal dithering) every pixel is changing color values constantly. IMO this constant noise on the screen, albeit not always noticable, is affecting us. I remember as a kid staring at white noise on a TV (hey, it was the 80's and no world wide web :)) and while I didn't get headaches from it, I instinctively knew I couldn't watch that for hours. Same with dithering, I don't think it's healthy for that type of stimulus to be on our screens. Obviously by nature screens have a level of flicker (I always avoided 60hz CRT's and went to 75hz+) but it never caused the severe reactions that I get in this decade. I would get an eye test just to rule out any other issue, but things such as dithering and the effects, are a very new idea, not recognised by any official authority as bad, and also no user-controllable way to disable (yet).

So I found a possible bug with the Nvidia X Server Settings application. On my system I if I set Dithering to Disabled and then save the .nvidia-settings-rc file to /home, it doesn't set the Dithering option correctly. I had to open the file and for each line that said "Dithering=0" change it to "Dithering=2". 0 = Auto which usually means enabled. 1 = Enabled. 2 = Disabled. I then added the following command to my startup: "nvidia-settings --load-config-only". Logged out and back in and than ran the following command: "nvidia-settings -q CurrentDithering". The result now shows dithering is definitely disabled. You can also run the command "nvidia-settings -q Dithering" to make sure the value is 2 (for Disabled). Now when I open Nvidia X Server Settings, the setting remains on Disabled. Now as far as did it fix my issue? It's too late for me to test right now for a prolonged session, so I'll test tomorrow when I wake up and see if it helps.

Something I don't understand IF dithering is the issue...is why I can use recent Ubuntu on very old laptops like 10+ years old...with no strain...but it strains in minutes on anything new. Even cheap new things with low resolution TN screens which SHOULD eliminate the possibility that its an issue with IPS or hish res etc. Is the old igpu i915 or whatever everything had back then not capable of dithering? Also why do old iPads on old iOS and iPhone 4s etc not dither (or presumably since they dont hurt and are ips) It would be pretty great if an "off" setting helped because I would love to use Ubuntu on new stuff. Shame the intel gpu integrated doesnt have an off switch....but if I had to get an Nvidia laptop that would work id would be better off than now. I've not tried Windows very much because anything I have got with Windows 10 to try strained...but you and some others say its NOT straining them. (or maybe you meant only Windows 7). I also wonder if its not psychological since there is always an outlier for every factor that does or doesn't hurt....at least one example...pwm, led, whatever...but who knows.

@"vaz"#p11517 Dithering requires changing pixels every frame. Older lcd monitors had such slow pixel response times that they might not be able to respond fast enough to actually display any dithering.

@"vaz"#p11517 I read on the Intel forums that the Windows drivers will enable dithering on 8bit and above displays. Your old display is probably a 6bit and maybe Ubuntu recognises this and disables dithering. I have used Windows 10 in the last year on a 2012 laptop and it was perfect. When checking the driver in use I think it was using the same version supplied by OEM (2012 version) and not using a 2015> driver. So maybe it's just drivers, maybe it's Windows 10, without seperating it all (video output vs driver vs OS) - it's hard to determine where the 'point of failure' is. How are you with games consoles/smart tv's? This isn't just an issue with PC's for me and I can't use Nintendo Switch for more than minutes. Also iPhone 4 was fine for me, that had an LED display and I'm using a 2019 LED monitor now, so at least for me it's not LED. Also it isn't necessarily eye strain thats the worst symptom for me (my eyes don't physically strain) it's neurological. I feel spaced out/over-focused on the screen.

> @"diop"#p11522 I read on the Intel forums that the Windows drivers will enable dithering on 8bit and above displays. Your old display is probably a 6bit and maybe Ubuntu recognises this and disables dithering. I don't think this is it because even most modern laptops, except high end ones, are 6+2, and I have tried new ones and new displays in moderately old laptops and those displays were 6+2 for sure. So if dithering is my pain it's not because it doesn't show up on under 8-bit panels. I broke out the Xbox 360 after not playing for a year, unrelated to eyestrain, and it was fine on a TN/LED flat panel TV. I don't have a new TV to test it on and I don't watch TV as a habit. I don't like looking at modern TVs in shops and people's homes because they have them on super bright color enhancement whatever modes always and I just find it noxious more than some neurological reaction, so I don't know how they would be with regular use and reasonable settings. I don't feel spaced out. My neck and face and back of head get tight and tingly in as short as a few minutes, and that progresses into a headache with hours. It's like something is making me tense around face and head. Contrast that with staring at super old stuff for 12 hours with no problems at all...not even a twinge.

@"Seagull"#p11518 Old TN panels from 2005-2010 etc were slower than current IPS panels? Current TN stuff is single digit ms and IPS is 30ish. Hard to believe an old TN is slower when TN has always been more responsive, and therefore that's why it wouldn't show dithering.

So I've had some time today to test if dithering was the issue for me, and it doesn't seem like it. I'm still getting eyestrain. So I'm just going to assume my eyes need to adjust to the new font rendering. When you get a new prescription of eyeglasses is the only way I can describe this eyestrain phenomenon. Everything is more clear, but your eyes strain for the first few days. One thing I did was download Redshift to adjust the color temperature to something really warm like 4500K. It does seem to take the edge off the "intensity" of the strain. Each day I'm going to increase it by 100K until I'm back at my calibrated 6500K, and hopefully by then everything will be Ok. And if not, then there must be something definitely going on differently in Linux then Windows. **EDIT:** Hour and half later using Redshift, and it's been a **drastic** improvement in my eyestrain.

@"vaz"#p11524 15ms is a fairly common response time for old TN, particularly on laptops which tended to be a bit worse. On a 60hz monitor that's an entire frame. I had a TN monitor bought 2001 with a 40ms response time, scrolling around the map on RTS games all I'd see is a grey blur.

> @"vaz"#p11523 I don't feel spaced out. My neck and face and back of head get tight and tingly in as short as a few minutes, and that progresses into a headache with hours. It's like something is making me tense around face and head. Contrast that with staring at super old stuff for 12 hours with no problems at all...not even a twinge. It's a mystery, isn't it? I don't have the symptoms you're getting but it's still a direct result of using new tech. I've got two machines at my desk, an Acer 2010 tower and Intel 2018 NUC - HDMI cable going into monitor. 2010 machine is fine all day, no ill effects. 2018 NUC, within 20 minutes (same cable, same monitor) I get symptoms (heavy eyes, dilated pupils, brain fog), It felt like my eyes were forced open and wasn't blinking as much. When I used it extensively (over 8 hours a day for two weeks) and then switched back to my 2010 machine, I immediately felt the physical and mental relief. I forced myself to use the NUC for that long to rule out placebo and to see how bad it could make me feel, also if I could get myself through it by using it all the time. My experience is nope. You might get more accustomed to the symptoms, but it's still affecting you in some way.

Eyestrain when switching from Windows to Linux

Pudentane

ggp110 not going to help i'm afraid. At least it never helped me nor too many people in here. Some claim they just can't disable it, though I found no issues doing that, just that it doesn't fix the eye-strain at all. The truth is, you can't really do anything about it. We have tried everything and all we have concluded so far is that a) It's non-existent on certain legacy GPUs and b) It seems to be absent if using very basic video drivers like VESA, since they don't harness the full potential of your GPU and therefore the problem is not triggered. What we could do is an in-depth research and report it to AMD, Nvidia and Linux devs in every minute detail and perhaps they could finally do something about it. I don't think we can fix it ourselves, it's just too delicate.

jowCode

Hey there. I am glad to find other people with the same issue. As I am a developer I usually sit about 10 hours a day in front of my screen and the most important thing for me is: NO EYESTRAIN.
For my work I have to use a Windows 10 Machine with no issues. Privately I switched to linux but just can't use it for longer than 10 minutes which makes it useless for me even though I'd loved to use it.
I have read all posts here and can confirm everything. I also fiddled around with the mentioned settings with no luck so far. I will try to reach out the issue to the askNoah show. I am sure he will try its best to help because he supports people who are switching from Windows to Linux.

Pudentane

jowCode but just can't use it for longer than 10 minutes which makes it useless for me even though I'd loved to use it

Boy, I wish I had a dollar every time I heard that... welcome aboard, comrade in misfortune. Just one question: have you tried the basic VESA driver? Also, have you seen this thread: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/eye-strain-from-certain-video-modes-drivers.53468/ ?

si_edgey

jowCode For my work I have to use a Windows 10 Machine with no issues. Privately I switched to linux but just can't use it for longer than 10 minutes which makes it useless for me even though I'd loved to use it.

Just to clarify - are you booting Linux on the same hardware that Windows 10 runs on without issue?

HAL9000

Recently my Lenovo z500 died a nvidia related death so I replaced the motherboard with an ebay one, it doesnt have an nvidia chip on it now, I swapped the same CPU over and installed Ubuntu 18.04 - was ok. Ubuntu 20.04 though? - NOT OK. Text looks fuzzy and it gives me some strain. Its better on 18.04 but that goes out of support soon. I also tried Kubuntu but this is similar.

I may try to put W10 on it but I dont think the hardware was ever supported as its quite old. (it had W8 on before the board swap) and this machine was fine for me to use with its built in and external screens on the HD4000 graphics. (but I would guess the external screens used the nvidia chip it had at the time - which it doesnt have now)

Pudentane

HAL9000 you don't happen to be on freenode, do you? There is someone with a nickname just like yours on my channel

HAL9000

Pudentane

Nope, not me

Pudentane

Breaking news: some folks report an absolutely strainless distro, which is ROSA Linux. Anyone cares to test it out?

Sunspark

Pudentane I am skeptical that any version is fine, but I do have a question since I was curious enough to look up this distro. The people reporting this, which version were they using? 11.1 uses the 5.4 kernel and 11 uses the 4.15 kernel.

JTL

Pudentane Who are "some folks"?

If a definite "good version" on a hardware setup is identified, should be able to isolate what's different with some work.

Pudentane

Sunspark no idea, but I don't think it really matters. Probably the latest one. I also got a response from kernel.org to whom I recently addressed this issue and here's what they say:

Thank you for writing your concerns. Unfortunately, we can only offer
help with kernel.org infrastructure, not any technical aspects of the
kernel itself. I suggest you email dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org with
your concerns.

So, I forwarded the complaint to these guys. I also provided the link to this thread in the letter.

Who are "some folks"?

People on https://www.linux.org.ru. I created a respective thread there too and turns out a handful of them are also affected by it and they also confirmed the issue being non-existent on much older hardware.

Sunspark

Pudentane no idea, but I don't think it really matters. Probably the latest one.

I went to that forum and looked for the thread and found it. I saw two people who said it was ok, one specified that it was 11.1 so the 5.4 kernel but neither of them specified which DE they were using. It's not really a big deal to check all of them since there's only 4. I still don't think it'll make a difference as the hardware used does matter, but I'll take a look this weekend. Hopefully the installer includes multiple languages.

(Btw, I'm not Russian, I was using computer translation.)

Sunspark

So, as promised, I took a look at the Rosa 11.1 spins. They are bootable off a flash drive, which if using Rufus needs to be written in DD mode not ISO.

Overall, old and no real surprises. I looked at LXQt, Plasma 5, KDE 4, XFCE. Of the four, I found Plasma 5 and XFCE to be the worst. KDE 4 was meh and the UI is atrocious now. The best one was LXQt. So the kernel is 5.4, and this was version 14.1 of LXQt being used here which uses the 5.11.2 QT libraries. The window manager it is using is the default, Openbox. (FYI, the difference between the older LXDE and LXQt is the toolkit library it is using. LXDE was GTK and also that they are separate projects with some overlap, but it is not a rewrite)

While it couldn't be changed at this time due to running off the usb flash drive, of the 4 graphics drivers that are an option for use (UXA, modesetting, i915 and VESA) I believe the stick was booting up using the i915 driver which is a clue.

Overall I was pleasantly surprised that LXQt was not awful and I will be taking another look at it again, perhaps in a different distro.

If someone wishes to take a look at Rosa's version of LXQt, grab the torrent and throw it on a usb drive. http://mirror.rosalab.ru/rosa/rosa2016.1/iso/ROSA.Fresh.R11.1/

Sunspark

Interesting.. I threw Fedora 33's spin of LXQt on a stick and took a look. It's using a different graphics driver compared to Rosa. The image didn't look as good. I kind of want to try OpenBSD to see how it compares visually, except for the fact that I can't boot off an external usb drive with it which is a problem since I don't have space on the internal drive right now.

The screen in Rosa lxqt of course is not as good as Windows, but it's definitely better than what I have seen elsewhere in Linux.

Bienias

I have the same problem with Linux. In the last years, I work mostly on Windows Machines because of Visual Studio.
But once per while I need to change to full Linux Desktop. Yesterday I worked like 9 hours on Mint 19 with Nvidia GT1050. After 10 minutes I had enough, after 2 hours I started to take a painkiller for a headache, after 9 hours and a half bag of painkillers, I was completely wasted. I survived just to return home, take more painkillers and sleep 12 hours because of eye strain and headache.
For me it starts a few years ago with Linux, I tried to find on the internet some solutions, fonts, change drivers, dpi, etc. Nothing works in past. Today thanks for your forum - I ordered old AMD 6570 and I hope it works. I will update in next week results.

KM

Bienias Why do you go for that specific graphics card? Did you read a recommendation? I searched the whole thread but didn't find this model here.

JTL

Bienias ordered old AMD 6570 and I hope it works.

I suspect that card is too old for the amdgpu kernel driver. Don't know how the radeon driver is these days.

Bienias

KM Not really. It's without recommendation. But I saw that other users are quite successful with old ATI.
I choose that one :

Because is 9 years old.
Fits to rest of the setup.
Has 2x DP for my Double/Triple Screen Setup.
And was easy to find/order.

I don't have a clue if it will work, that is why I will provide some feedback after.

degen

Bienias

How is your AMD card on Linux?

dimi

Hey! Here is my experience about the same eye strain problem:

I use DELL P2415Q monitors (4k at 60Hz)
MacOS on macbook pro 2015 works seamlessly (main main work station for years)
Windows 10 gives again beautiful pain-free picture on the same monitor
Linux gives me eye strain instantly (as to many of you). I have tried intel gpu, amd, and nvidia cards. All of them gave the same eye strain on the same monitor.

I have not tested playing around with the dithering, so can't tell if that helps in my case. I am closely looking for the solution as I would switch to Linux as my main work station.

My guess is that the problem is about refresh rate. If I set it manually to 30Hz then it feels very painful to me, then if I put it to normal 60Hz it still gives me pain. So I feel that the driver somehow incorrectly set the refresh rate. However xrandr and things like that shows that the refresh rate is around 60. So I have no technical knowledge to understand how the driver can mess it up with the refresh rate anyways..

ensete

Pudentane I'm done folks, good luck with this thing.

"If it works, NEVER change it"

"Security risks" of running older software and OS's are 99.9% BS. If you practice common sense safe computing you won't have any issues. Nearly all viruses, malware, and security breaches still come from morons clicking links in sketchy emails.

Pudentane

ensete

"If it works, NEVER change it" -- 100% agreed.

"Security risks" of running older software and OS's are 99.9% BS. 99% not agreed. Nothing to do with it and all these vulnerabilities are overrated and you know it. Also, I don't click on any sketchy links in sketchy emails, that's so 90s dude. Not sure why people persist with it though.

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