Hello everyone! I'm coming over from this massive Apple thread, where I think a lot of us "met" in the first place: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/1677617?start=2370&tstart=0 - Eye strain from LED backlighting in MacBook Pro" That huge thread no longer seems appropriate to follow for this type of issue, as this forum is a much more serious and dedicated resource! I will re-post my last update I made to the Apple thread here, in the case it may help somebody: I have a partial solution that may help take the edge off with a lot of these symptoms. Since our eyes all hurt, I'll try to condense my findings as much as possible! Here is the tl;dr version: **Symptom Date Range**: August 25, 2012 ---> present day **Symptoms**: - Photophobia / light sensitivity - Aching / cramping eyes - Tension / visual headaches - Nausea / motion- or sea-sickness **Occupation**: Server Administrator **Average VDU usage per week** (work + home): 60 hours **Computer Monitor Used** (work & home): Dell UltraSharp U2410 **Cellphone Used**: iPhone 6S+ **Partial Solution**: (The following steps likely saved my career in IT about a year ago) - Reducing brightness from 50% --> 0% (causing maximum PWM flicker) - Changing color temperature from Standard --> Warm - Installing f.lux to further reduce color temperature from 6500K --> 5000K **Official Diagnosis**: Convergence Insufficiency & Accommodative insufficiency - (made by optometrist) **Suggested Diagnosis**: Scotopic Sensitivity Syndrome (a.k.a. Irlen Syndrome) - (made by Irlen consultant) **Causation Theory**: I've suffered long enough and gone through enough trial and error to eventually learn a thing or two about what seems to bring on my symptoms. Exposure to an LED backlight will cause a sharp pinching ache in both my eyeballs in minutes or even seconds. It would be akin to turning on your iPhone flashlight and staring directly into it. That's how it feels at almost every brightness level (including 0%). Since the luminescence seems to be rated about the same as my Dell U2410 (CCFL), my causation theory for this is the wavelength of light emitted by LEDs, which is significantly more blue-shifted. My theory is that some of us are sensitive to HEV (High Energy Visible Light), while the majority of the population has no symptoms. This is just my layman theory, and I currently don't have any scientific facts to back that claim up. More clues were gained when I got a "flicker-free" LED monitor from Ben-Q (no PWM), and my issues got worse, even at the lowest brightness levels. That may suggest that pulse-width modulation (PWM) can be a red-herring for some of us out there, but remember that everybody's case is different! My other causation theory is just pure overuse, plain and simple. That's why I posted my occupation and amount of hours spent on a digital display above. I have noticed that my eyes are sensitive to all forms of light after overtaxing the eyes after excessive reading, whether that is sunlight or a monitor backlight. I have also experienced the same type of eye strain when reading a lot of print, such as studying for an exam, or reading a product manual. Periods of consecutive rest will somewhat improve symptoms, while consecutive days of heavy usage will make the issues resurface. Reading smaller text, like emails or log files, will bring the issues on quicker as well, which is why I suggest enlarging text wherever possible (Ctrl + Mouse Wheel Up) So those are my two prime suspects at this time: wavelengths of light viewed (blue-light from LEDs), and constant overuse of the eyes in close-work. I can reproduce my symptoms by staring at a bright LED monitor for a few minutes, or by an extended reading session. I did about 2 years of binocular vision therapy to try to help the "convergence insufficiency & accommodative insufficiency", and was eventually able to score good enough numbers to "graduate". I still have the symptoms described at the top, but after the monitor settings changes I did, I can go much longer before those symptoms come on. Another hint to score in the "overuse" camp is the fact that I developed an RSI (repetitive strain injury) in both wrists in August 2015 from overuse in typing! I'm currently attending physiotherapy for it, but after all this time, it still has not healed up. I have to wear two heavy-duty wrist splints just to type on a freaking keyboard! I'm not sure how many more hints my body can throw at me that I use computers way too much overall! =p I'll share any more discoveries I find going forward, should they come!

I have also been diagnosed with accomodative and convergence insufficiency. Prior to that I had upper body RSIs as well. I had sustained dozens of hours a week on the computer for many years without pain. I know that the issue for me is similar to yours - the intrinsic (ciliary) and extrinsic muscles of the eye (which are responsible for accommodation and convergence respectively, as you know) become cramped. The tension in these muscles causes further difficulty with accommodating and converging, creating a vicious cycle. What has changed about modern display technology which causes dysfunction in these muscles? I think that if your eye must constantly re-accommodate and re-converge (as people have described, although they say 're-focus', and they refer to these processes individually), its muscles will become fatigued quickly. There are some studies out of Japan where workers with eyestrain from VDTs were given astaxanthin. The researchers found that those given the supplement had less eyestrain and importantly, did better on tests of accomodative power. I'll compile the studies and post them/

Have you ruled out temporal dithering? I find that it is the biggest cause of my eye pain. It's incredibly obvious on Macbooks from 2012-2014, on some models you can even SEE it (as flickering or dancing pixels when you get your eyes right up against the screen).

@"degen"#p772 Hi degen, I was seeing some of your posts before, and it was very interesting that you had the exact same two binocular vision difficulties that I did. I think it was important that I admitted the amount of hours I spent on a digital display each week, because all that reading and close-work of the eyes I'm sure eventually contributed to having such troubles. Did you ever do anything in particular to help these two issues, like binocular vision therapy? What I can't explain though is how I have this abnormal sensitivity to other LED screens in the office. I pretty much outright refuse to work with anyone deskside that has an LED monitor, as I will be "topped out" in visual strain for the entire day with only a few minutes exposure. What's worse is they have the brightness on these things cranked up like crazy. That cannot be good for long-term eye health. I don't know what I'm going to do when LEDs are rolled out everywhere. I've also noticed that if I watch TV for an extended period on the couch far away, my eyes will eventually hurt as well. This doesn't make sense from a convergence and accommodative standpoint, as this is distance viewing of at least 15 feet. I don't watch a whole lot of TV for long periods of time these days, but it is something I have recently noticed. Maybe my brain just doesn't like focusing on any one thing for too long of a period of time.

@"Harrison"#p866 > new apple macbooks and retina display Me 🙂

@"JTL"#p868 so you are strainfree on new macbook and retina?

Non-PWM Sufferer - Narrowed Down to Blue-Light Sensitivity or Overuse

MagnuM

Gurm Hi Gurm,

I haven't ruled it out yet, but I'm not sure if it applies in my situation.

At work I use a Dell U2410 (with the settings in my original post) on an Intel(R) HD Graphics 4000 display adapter.

At home I use a Dell U2410 (with the settings in my original post) on a "Zotac GeForce GTX 580 AMP!" graphics card.

I'm not sure if the latter display adapter uses temporal dithering or not, but it does use nVidia drivers. If I remember correctly, nVidia has temporal dithering disabled by default.

Both work and home seem to be "equal bad" when it comes to eventual symptoms, which is why I've considered temporal dithering a "point of interest" only at this present time.

Gurm

You are correct, MagnuM. GTX 580 wouldn't have any temporal dither. I'd look elsewhere. If you are in a controlled environment, with a CFL-lit monitor (2410) and a GeForce card... that's a puzzle. You don't have an abundance of blue light, so I'd guess it's overuse.

Or, in what was most assuredly the case for me a couple years ago, it could be the work environment. I moved from an office with lighting I could tolerate and monitors that worked for me to an office with harsh full-spectrum overhead fluorescents. They gave me such intense eyestrain that it took literally days to recover at home. My employer was good enough to let me work in a closed office with incandescent bulbs and my symptoms slowly improved. At this point, we've moved to a new office with equally terrible lighting, but I remove the light over my desk and wear a visor at all times. It helps a lot but isn't perfect.

You might want to consider that, because it sounds like your home environment and your home/work hardware are both just fine...

kammerer

Two weeks ago I worked with two ccfl monitors during a business trip: dell u2410 and dell u2711. With u2410 I totally got a headache and eyes irritation at any level of brightness/contrast (flux doesn't help me). As I understand the main problem of u2410 is PWM and it seems that I am very sensitive to it. There was another option with u2711 so I also tried it. With default settings on u2711 I don't feel any problems with eyes. I was working on it during two weeks.

System configuration: integrated graphics of intel i7 second generation + Ubuntu 14.04

sulli

Hi MagnuM ,

I have a very similar symptoms I think. I will share here as I've been struggling with these for more than 4 months now, and this could help others:

I started a programming job in a startup end of 2015, and worked on my Samsung laptop 7/7 for 3 months non-stop. Then around Christmas 2015 I felt so bad in my head and realized that I couldn't look at a computer screen (or my phone screen) without feeling very dizzy and totally unable to focus.

I left my job in the startup the next day (it was quite a lot of stress actually) and went to hospital to do a brain scan (CT), nothing! Then I did eyes check, they diagnosed a little astigmatism (0.25). Then I checked the ears (with a sound test) and they said that I probably had a vestibular neuronitis (maybe stimulated by stress, but this is said to be "multi-factorial").

So I tried to re-organize my life to make it healthier and more balanced (as that's the main advice from doctors when having vestibular neuronitis). I tried to completely stop looking at the screen, also started regular sport, and did more social activities (friends, etc).

I was getting better, and after 1 month away from the keyboard, I started a new job. Programmer again, but only 5/7. As soon as I started to look at the computer screen again, the symptoms came back:
- very difficult to focus when looking at the computer screen (after 15mn).
- NEW SYMPTOM : light sensitivity from the big window on my right. I had to cover my eyes with my right hand!
- NEW SYMPTOM : sound sensitivity, and for a few days, skin sensitivity.

I thought I would have to quit after the first week, as I couldn't do any reasoning in front of my computer (and coding is mostly about logic and reasoning !!!). But I didn't quit, here is what I did:
- Continued to do sport, have social life,
- Stay away from computer/phone in the evening and in the weekends,
- I also bought a Kindle to look at programming books, as I could perfectly read on a Kindle (no headaches or uncomfortable feelings).
- Turned to almost minimum my laptop screen brightness (even though I read that with low brightness, the backlit will flicker at lower frequency...go figure...).

and little by little, after 3 weeks (beginning of march), I could start to feel better 2 or 3 days per week. Often it worsened at the end of the week (which was really depressing, as I often thought I was done with the problem).

So here I am！ It's been two months in this new job, and I'm much better for sure if I compare with 4 months ago when all started. BUT, if I compare with the normal me 8 months ago, I'm still handicapped, no doubts.

I think I have a neuronitis stimulated by computer screen (so I think it's the combination of two problems).

I wish I will recover much better, and here is what I plan for the future:
- I'm gonna buy a non-PWM Dell monitor U2515H and see If any improvements (flicker free, and bigger size to display bigger font).
- If no improvements, I'm gonna see an ophthalmologist and see if there is any exercise I could do with my eyes to release the problem (I'm not sure if there is smth to release actually).
- If no improvements, I will try wearing glasses (to correct my astigmatism, and also to filter blue light etc).
- If no improvements...well, I don't know, but I'll continue to fight, to get my vision and brain back.

I'll give some updates here. Thank you all for sharing your experience.

Harrison

hey everybody. As I already explainend in many different threads here, I suffer from the same things as you and also have nearly the same same history MagnuM

Long Story Short:

I got New Glasses with perfect corrigation of complicated astigmatism two months ago and I'm still not really used to it. It's always a bit stressful for my eyes. However they were really expensive. I furhter try them out, but binocular vision has improved pretty much.

New work with Nvidia Quadro and two DellU2412M. Not as bad as Intel graphics, but still strainy for the eyes and its getting worse every day. Tried already out f.lux und different settings.

Are there any news about dithering?

Have somebody of you tried out 4k Screen? This is the last thing I haven't tried out and different people told, that they were strainfree with new apple macbooks and retina display.

Finally how do you feel when you are going home from work? In my case nature and the "reality" seems to have to less contrast. Sounds weird and is diffucult to explain.

JTL

Harrison

new apple macbooks and retina display

Me 🙂

Harrison

JTL

so you are strainfree on new macbook and retina?

JTL

Harrison Well I have the 2015 Macbook Pro with AMD graphics

Works fine for me

and I did try a Intel HD 3000 based laptop over HDMI to my BenQ monitor and might have seen a bit of dithering with some strain I do not get on my Macbook.

Harrison

is your mentionend benq full hd or 4k?

JTL

Harrison Only 1080p (XL2720Z)

I am looking to buy a 4K monitor though (would like to try some in a store first if the store lights wouldn't bother me)

Harrison

JTL

Ok. Let us know if eyestrain is gone with such a monitor.

JTL

Harrison My friend has this Samsung 28-inch 4K monitor (is a TN panel) but it supports up to 10-bit color depth without dithering. He uses it for CAD work.

Might ask him if I can try it

Harrison

JTL

That would be great if you can do that.

Yeah. You're of course right. There is no option instead of trial and error.

528491

OF course it depends on the person in question, but my opinion is that people are putting too much faith in the flicker free / non dithering solutions. While I totally get that may be a solution for some, I'm pretty sure the main driver for most of the problems is the blueish led light.

I too have a little bit of astigmatism, and as much as I try, for how long I try the end result is the same: although I do see slightly better, they give me nausea, even if I insist on using them several weeks in a row. I have problems with any kinds of glasses, even with standard sunglasses -- they give me nausea and eye strain. I'm light sensitive in general, as I suspect a lot of people that here complain about led lights must be. It's just that computer displays are so much aggressive in the eyes than general light.

I for some reason don't like kindles, I think that the font is not very clear and that gives me headaches but I remain unsure. On a similar note, I had trouble with Ubuntu's font until I shut anti aliasing off.

JTL

__528491__ Do I recognize you from Reddit?

degen

__528491__ Dithering, PWM, subpixel rendering.. I think many focus on these things because they're under our control, and while eliminating issues with them may not solve the problem, sometimes it can make enough of a difference to save someone's career.

Fancy lens tints are certainly evolving quickly. There is some hope there.

As for glasses, I also can not stand any lenses that have a cylindrical correction (for astigmatism). I can use reading glasses (spherical correction) without discomfort and they helped me a lot. Corrections for minor astigmatism are really just to make things "sharp" and everything looks better while using it, but it doesn't really improve legibility a whole lot.

JTL

__528491__ Also. Regarding kindles. It is possible to change the font and it should be possible to modify the OS to completely disable the backlight.

528491

JTL Yes, one of my not-so-throwaway accounts has this very same nick.

MagnuM

I again want to stress that for some LED sufferers out there, PWM may not be your enemy. Several PWM-free monitors are rolling out in our offices, and they kill my eyes/brain within minutes or even seconds. I've been writing down some of the model numbers that have this effect on me:

Dell P1913
Dell U2413
Dell U2713H

I want to point out that there is nothing inherently wrong with these monitors, as people are using them 8 hours a day, every day, without complaining. The problem is obviously a sensitivity or "allergy" of some sort of the way the monitor displays the picture, but I have not been able to find out the actual cause or solution.

I was working with a colleague that had the Dell U2413 yesterday, and I can feel my eyes cramping very early on. For most of the day I had to work with them. By the end of the day, my head was splitting so bad I could barely think, nor even write a comprehensive email (spelling mistakes, word replacements, etc). The rest of the night, and even trying to sleep was pretty rough, and even the next day without any new exposure, I still sort of feel a sort of "camera flash afterimage" seemingly superimposed over everything.

What worries me is halfway through the day yesterday, I tried to mitigate the effects by putting on a pair of yellow-tinted "BluTech Lenses" unfortunately it looks like it was a false sense of security. A couple of weeks ago I saw a neuro-ophthalmologist that I could tell didn't know what was causing my issue, but did suggest (by advice of some of his industry associates) that the FL-41 tint (rose-colored) has helped some migraine sufferers with similar issues.

I knew something unusual was up when I built a $3,300 gaming rig way back in December 2011 with a brand new Samsung SyncMaster S24A850DW 24" LED monitor. It made me feel like hell within 5 minutes. It sat for a year collecting dust as I reverted back to my old computer and monitor. After a year, I sold the monitor for a filesale, and bought a Dell U2410.

I somehow have the feeling this wretched issue will end my IT career, one way or another. That's a scary thought, as one does not simply change careers overnight, and it was a 13-year-long investment...

JTL

MagnuM Some of this rings a bell
https://ledstrain.org/d/4-dell-u2414h-monitor

528491

Sorry for the original post above, it was written in my cell phone while at an airport, so I was not perfectly clear at all at some points.

MagnuM Hello. I definitely feel your pain. I'm also a Software Engineer and I share the same fears as you. Regarding a career switch, there would be no advantage at all -- most jobs nowadays will require you to sit your ass in the office in front of a computer anyway so unless you decide to be a lumberjack or get some sort of blue collar work there is not that much to do.

Plus, I totally agree with you. PWM or not, I will feel exactly the same discomfort with a laptop display. But I also believe there are people that are actually sensitive to that.

I'm pretty sure this kind of .. discomfort we feel is not binary. There are manifold degrees and most people either don't have it or have it in small doses. Doses so small they don't even notice or care about. As it stands, that is bad for us, because we sure are a minority. But as the economies develop, we'll get more and more people working in white collar jobs requiring them to sit their asses more often and for longer periods than before. More people will develop these kinds of symptoms, and I'm pretty sure that in the next couple of years, with the introduction of LED lightning pretty much everywhere, a critical threshold of sufferers will be attained which will force further, real investigation into this topic.

Anyway, I bought a 2nd hand HP Pavilion dv6 from 2011 and this is so much softer in my eyes 🙂. But it's interesting, because now I notice that it gives me a very mild headache to use it. I'm pretty sure this was already like this in the past, but as I was not so much aware of the problems of lightning I didn't notice. I also feel a strange sensation in the throat, as if I was having acid reflux. I know I have suffered with this problem for most of my live, but at the time I also had no idea it could be related to my laptop's screen.

PS: I think this forum is a very interesting development in our saga to improve our situations, but I wonder if we couldn't have some way of registering our symptoms / discoveries in a more straightforward way? Having to go through all these posts is counterproductive. It looks like several of us are Software Engineers, so maybe we could think of something else that could complement this forum? I would like to have some way to have different people register all their findings with tags or something, and then we could create some sort of visual graph where we could see it all.

JTL

__528491__ I had a HP pavilion DV6 many years ago.

Be warned, it overheats easily and I had a GPU failure in 6 months and HP support just replaced the battery when I sent it in for repair.

http://www.laptopscreen.com/English/model/HP-Compaq/PAVILION~DV6-6128CA/