KM Look at this conversation I had with the head guy from blur busters. He talks about all sorts of things in regards to LED screens and lights. He mentions CRI 98 lights by some company he has tried that have a phosphor for the blue light. Normally there is only a phosphor for red and green. I think if more people on this site researched information over there they would have a lot less problems. Nobody I have ever seen on the internet knows more about lights and screens then him. https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5361

I actually printed out everything he told me it was 17 pages. Good luck.

  • KM replied to this.

    jasonpicard That thread was what made me think of CRI. But he didn't mention any company or specific product label. Those violet chip bulbs he talks about are hard to find as if the companies don't want our money or they don't even sell it yet and what he talks about was some prototype hands-on. I'd also be curious why the people he talks about that have serious LED issues and finally found relief from violet LED chips didn't ever show up here on the ledstrain forum. I think we'd love to hear their story.

      KM His information is so insane. I believe my main issue from taking with him is LED screens main limitation of the 16.7ms motion blur. As he says you have to be way higher in refresh rate on LED to even have a comfortable feel obligated your eyes. I bought the LG24GL600F gaming monitor. It's the first time in 11 years that a monitor has caused zero strain. It's the over drive feature that makes this monitor. He has good articles talking about how a good over drive feature can make a monitor amazing. He talks about so many different scenarios like a 240hz monitor not being very good for any content under 240hz. Some people who are sensitive to Flicker have no issues with BFI. It's just way too much to list here. I'm even using a Sony Wega tube TV now which I haven't been able to use a tube TV so I thought. I have been studying his site for months. I still think I'm only scratching the surface. I believe most of us on here need to control all of our environment. As he always points out different screens for different situations. Most screens can't play movies, games and reading text all in one. DLP, CRT, plasma for movies. The games issue is game dependent and system dependent. Reading is determining what screen works best then highest refresh rate possible. LG is releasing some gaming IPS monitors at 1ms which is a first. Samsung is releasing a 240hz VA. He even says OLED is bound to the same rules as LED. 16.7 ms motion blur at 60hz. Only difference is OLED has a instant pixel response. This usually poses a problem for movies though. I think the LG 2019 OLED solved the problem mostly but it could be a cause of eyestrain fire done still. Playing movies and games and reading text is totally different and I don't think enough people take that into account.

        24 days later

        jasonpicard I bought the LG24GL600F gaming monitor. It's the first time in 11 years that a monitor has caused zero strain.

        Great to hear that you found a screen that works for you.

        I also owned an LG LED screen, but this had 240Hz and not 144Hz. I am not sure if I tested the overdrive function but I got a lot of headache from the LED light, I think.
        Sorry if I am a bit sceptical here but how is this LED light different from others? I mean there are people (like me) who suffer from "almost any" LED light bulb. Have not purchased a CRI 93+ LED bulb yet, but I have little hope that this would help. I use glasses with blue light filters and this is not a remedy. So I deem there needs to be something else that triggers the eyes...

        How long do you use this screen now? 2 weeks continuously?

          jasonpicard I bought the LG24GL600F gaming monitor. It's the first time in 11 years that a monitor has caused zero strain.

          What is the hardware driving it? CPU/GPU/cables etc? Do other monitors hurt on that same hardware but with this monitor there is no eyestrain at all with no other changes?

            deepflame If you mess around on the Blur Busters forum there is a lot of talk about the 240HZ having issues running 60hz content. They are first generation 240hz panels and a lot of people had complaints with them. From what I understand about this particular monitor I bought it's considered a mature 144hz panel and it's new and exclusive to this monitor. A lot of monitors use the same panels in different monitors. So when I put the overdrive feature to max I have no issues. I don't run a blue light filter or anything. This tells me that my main problem is motion blur. I believe everyone on this site needs to consider that to some degree. It's a problem that plagues every CCFL and LED 16MS persistence motion blur on every 60hz LED. This never existed on Plasma and CRT. It creates a problem called eye tracking where you eye believes the image is going to be in a certain spot when the screen refreshes but it's not. Rtings.com explains this good in there Youtube videos. They have a five part series explaining lots of LED problems.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNb3X1AM6uI

            I have suffered from every 99.9 % of every screen I have ever used for 11 - 12 years and every LED light until this. The two OLED screens that didn't affect me The Samsung S2 and my Yotaphone 2 I was told by the head guy at Blur Busters they use crappy LED's to. 80CRI so it really got me thinking that can't be my problem. I bought probably 10 monitors and returned them in the past 3 months till this one. I think I'm on 1 month and half with it now I have had every game system I own hooked up to it and use it on the computer and have no issues. I brought it on vacation with me and was gaming on it as well. I can use the screen unlimited and I have had tons of 8 hour gaming sessions on it. Over drive is a complicated function and most monitors have terrible over drive features. The Blur Busters guy said that a good over drive can make a monitor amazing. It's predicating where the pixels need to be before they would normally get there and what color they need to be if I understand it correctly. This is a big deal when you think about how slow an LED screen is. Most people think when they stare at a screen it's a still image but no it's a screen constantly redrawing itself and LED does a terrible job at this. especially when you see the Rtings youtube videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BJU2drrtCM Check that video out as well by the Slow Mo guys to see how different screens work in slow Mo. That LG monitor you bought I thought there was a giant thread on it on Blur Busters and it wasn't considered very good. I could be totally wrong on that. I'm also testing my first LED light bulb but I want to wait a bit before I say anything. I believe it's only a CRI 80 - 85 but flicker free. Early Impressions is it's not giving me any problems but will see. I know that CRI isn't an issue for me it mainly has to do with motion blur or the lack of phoshor on the blue spectrum or the digital nature of LED. The Blur Busters guy told me that CRT is way easier on the eyes then LED. You have to have a high refresh rate and BFI sometimes to get that smooth clarity of CRT. Also he said panel type matters for different people I think my panel of choice is TN but that may not be the case for other people.

            https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3624 This is one crazy thread about dither and every other eye problem related to LED.

            https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5361
            This second one is my questions to the head guy at blur busters. Look at his crazy response to me.

              hpst Yeah I bought probably 10 different monitors with the same Windows 10 computer had pain. This monitor is the first monitor that gives me no issues.

              • hpst replied to this.

                hpst Radeon R7, HDMI, CPU is crap. Not at home right now but probably a quadcore AMD something. I mostly use it for playing emulator games and have consoles hooked up to the other HDMI port.

                jasonpicard Hmm, very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I will certainly have a look at the videos and see if I can find the screen at a local computer shop to try.

                  deepflame https://youtu.be/kdMzJHLHB9A Check this video it as well. Linus totally proves you need to use different settings for different activities. Some monitors come with over drive automatically set and most of them are terrible and can result in immediate eyestrain. A lot of monitors are usually only good at one thing so it depends what you are looking for with your screens.

                    jasonpicard

                    If even static text on websites is straining how much can this "motion blur" really be a factor? The "try these things simultaneously" advice is the same list that comes up over and over and most of us have tried all of that to no effect. At one point he says dithering doesn't introduce flickering but I don't agree with that. He also talks about specific display tech for specific sensitivities but I don't think any of us KNOW for sure what our root sensitivities are as there are so many factors. So far I am not seeing anything new or applicable but am still reading. The deep down the rabbit hole craziness like taking projectors apart and making incandescent backlights always ends up with the same disappointment. I have not seen a single person do any of that crazy stuff and solve their problem for good. It's just moving the issue around without unearthing WHY.

                    Don't get me wrong I hope the answer is buried in there somewhere. It's just that every time I have seen people deep dive into any problem to such a degree and start threorizing about such fine grained things iit ends up becoming about the detail and obsessing on tiny frequency differences etc. I've never seen it solve anything. I really wish we could get some more testable things and data...rather than so much subjective stuff. Hopefully @JTL's dithering experiments will bear fruit.

                      hpst Can you go on Blur Busters and post your issues? tell him what screens you can use what your lighting environment is like where you use your computer. I would be super interested to hear the answers. I'm super lucky because I have controlled all my lighting environment even my work as I had multiple meetings with many people. I'm almost always in a flicker free zone no matter where I am.

                      • diop replied to this.

                        jasonpicard Don't want to stray OT but I agree with @hpst regarding dithering being the elephant in the room.

                        Does 'overdrive' on these new monitors truly eliminate the effects of dithering? While that is indeed a very positive idea this technology will be quite expensive. Furthermore I think it would be very hard to convince a company that you need a $1000+ gaming monitor just to work in their office 9-5. So while we can get the exact setup to our liking at home, this still proves a real issue out there in the working world.

                        So there are two angles as i see it - either find a 'cure-all' monitor which will work with all bad devices, or isolate the root cause at the software level to begin with to eliminate the need for any filters/glasses/or expensive monitors.

                          diop this gaming monitor I bought is 230 dollars CDN. I convinced my work to buy all gaming monitors when I presented the evidence. We got 10 new computers in my shop and we now have all new viewsonic gaming monitors. It doesn't cost much more unless you're buying a crazy gaming monitor. Heck the Samsung gaming monitor I bought was only 340 with shipping. Can you go to a movie theatre and watch a movie with no pain? Sounds like the ultimate dithering test if you believe that's your main problem. I don't have the dithering issue so I can't relate information to that. DLP/Plasma/TN panel dither the harshest. I personally perform best on all those screens.

                          • diop replied to this.

                            jasonpicard Not as expensive as I thought. 😉

                            One thing we do know is dithering involves the movement of pixels, and that all modern OS/Drivers are probably using a form of it (otherwise there would be no Amulet Hotkey fixes required for PCoIP). As it has been shown with flicker-fusion thresholds, some are more sensitive than others, but regardless the extra 'movement' created by temporal dithering is still present, even if the majority of users cannot perceive it. This is enabled by default on all MacOS installs - so in theory I could test every monitor out in the wild today, but if the Mac driving the monitor always has temporal dithering enabled then the pixel movement will always be there. I still feel that until that very big aspect of modern tech is taken out of the equation we won't know for certain if it was the issue all along.

                              diop I had watched a video last week with the last CRT Apple product. Released some time around 2002 I think can you use that? I have never used apple products. Never been a fan.https://youtu.be/3NkYANkRPJg I believe this could provide clues to your problem. Dithering has been a problem forever PS1 and N64 used it nobody had problems with it back in the 90's. https://youtu.be/SFN972KabBQ you don't have to watch this video but this guy covers video game hacks from that era showing you how the games have crazy dithering issues and people have removed the dithering to make the game look cleaner.

                              • diop replied to this.

                                diop https://youtu.be/brMW6KFue-I sorry I'm a big retro game nut. This is a PS2 video explaining the crazy interlaced mode it used. Which I would say is one of the harshest modes for viewing screen content. Nobody I know complained about this back in the 2000's. It makes alot of the games look like they are Flickering and they have jagged edges. PS2 was alot of people's first DVD players. It was pretty cheap at the time. I don't think anyone has used this interlaced mode since. At least I don't believe it's the norm.

                                jasonpicard I did use the original iMac in the early 00's and don't remember having any issues.

                                Thanks for the links - I already sub to My Life in Gaming, great channel (I'm also a big retro gamer). I think the dithering used in those days was a short cut as viewing the dithered images on a CRT smoothed the pixels out, and that's why a lot of people resort to filters in emulation nowadays.

                                  dev