I want to share here some findings about LED bulbs. Since moving and trying them out in my new flat, I noticed I cant handle any at all, they create the same tension around my eyes as new displays. Times have moved on since we first started here and I bought an affordable flicker meter - https://www.ledclusive.de/en/light-master-g3-748

It is not perfect, but the professional ones cost 1500 Euro or more. It measures amount of light, RA (color rendition), color temperature and flicker. I have found some interesting meterings with it I want to share.

First a LED bulb in a cafe that flickers even on phone camera (very good RA might be possibly an interference from outside light, but maybe its just very good ra bulb), the flicker is very stroboscopic:

Now LED that completely baffles me, as it has a traditional bulb pattern of flicker:

Now LED that has completely different pattern, but is also from IKEA:

Phillips recently admitted that LEDs cause issues and claim that they are trying to solve it - https://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/consumer/led-lights/eyecomfort

However, even the new ones for me dont work and I still feel nauseated when spending time under them. I think they nicely outline all the possible issues these might have. I think RA could be cause of issues as well, since low color reproduction means more strain on the eyes.

Theres also the issue that the flicker from the supposedly flicker free LEDs could be happening only between 90%-100% brightness as opposed to old bulbs. This would mean that technically the bulb is not going completely dark, but still oscillates between max and lower brightness with a stroboscopic effect.

I will keep measuring LEDs, but I am really baffled by the flicker pattern of that one IKEA bulb, I have never seen it on any LED ever, only on old school incandescent bulbs. There is a chance that if the flicker is not stroboscopic, but like that of old bulbs, these LEDs could be harmless (but seeing the list phillips made, I doubt that would be the only reason). I have to test this with daily usage first. Maybe there is some DC driver that softens the curve, maybe someone could explain?

    Do you think these could be caused by more issues than just BVD, @martin ?

    Are incandescents or halogens (e.g. non-LED) lightbulbs an option?

      ryans for me I am fine when having one eye patched now, so I believe in my case its all BVD. Or possibly made worse by BVD and everyone has it, but far less.

      Yes, incandescent and halogen are ok for me, cause no issues. But theyre being pushed out of the market.

      • mike replied to this.

          I am super interested in any more details you find!
          I am pretty sure my smartphone pain is connected to some led light quality.
          I have zero problems looking at any kind of led or having led at my appartment but:

          1. When I am comparing phones in bright white led-lit store I have somehow less symptoms.
          2. When I am comparing phones in ambient white or cold led-lit store next to light sources I have slightly less symptoms.
            No difference when it is sunlit though.
            It may happen only if some light quality of lamps correlates with phone light emission or (I doubt that) cancels it. Probably it makes environment more even and my eyes adjust better.

          martin Try Martin Philips LED classic with 2700K, this work for me. Find this ones with sign EyeComfort. It cost around 2-3euro for 40W.

          Ikea, Osram and other led's - direct strain. Now I'm using at home only this Philips LED's. I bough two 4000K same Philips EyeComfort and this give me strain. So I recommend 2700K classic bulbs to try.

          https://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/consumer/led-lights/eyecomfort

            ryans

            martin for me I am fine when having one eye patched now, so I believe in my case its all BVD. Or possibly made worse by BVD and everyone has it, but far less.

            It was the same for me before my one-eye-training. I had problem with a new store and a new restaurant that had led-lights in the roof. That was around fall 2018. After training, no problems. So I also believe it’s BVD.

                  mike Did you wear an eyepatch inside the restaurants / stores?

                  • mike replied to this.

                      ryans

                      No, that was a few months before I understand that covering one eye worked.

                        @martin Did you try those Philips EyeComfort ones? Have you found a comfortable flicker-free LED?

                        6 days later
                        6 days later

                        ryans Hi, I havent tried those. But I found one that works for me flawlessly, made by a czech designer. I met with him and he lent me 3 to test out. Its flicker free, with high color reproduction, and well made. Bit expensive, but he offers rental as well. Its also not fit for ceiling lighting, mostly for lamps.

                        https://www.vitaelight.com/en/vitaelight-en/

                          6 months later

                          CFL and LED lighting are my major trigger in life, more so that screens. I have reams of information I have written on them.

                          Low power consumption, complemented by a huge service life, colossal light output and environmental friendliness – these are four indisputable advantages, thanks to which LED-based lamps are becoming leaders today.

                          I have also done extensive investigation into the legislation (at least in the US) around the incandescent lighting ban and the move to LED's. I can tell you, without a doubt, the reason the lighting industry pushed was this change was 100% profit driven. The margins on LED light bulbs are orders of magnitude higher than they were for incandescent and the lighting manufacturers received hundred of millions of dollars in government subsidies under the Obama administration to make the change over.

                          Also, while they do use less power, LED service life is on average not much longer than incandescents due to the cheap electronic drivers they use in LEDS bulbs. The lighting quality is also FAR inferior (any stimulated emission light source is going to be far inferior to black body radiation) and they have a much higher environmental impact due to manufacturing the electronic components. People here just dont care because they are manufactured in China, not here, so the Chinese deal with the pollution from thier manufacture

                          And in cold climates, the heat loss from switching to LED bulbs has to be made up from home heating sources, many of which use oil and natural gas, increase the carbon footprint. In short LED's are far from the miracle devices they are advertised to be. They were dressed up, oversold, and overpromised in order to fatten the profits of the lighting manufacturers.

                          The latest move that has been going on is a push to get legislation passed at the local level to force municipalities to switch to LED street lighting, under the guise of "green legislation", where the actual reason is to lock local governments into maintenance plans and bulb costs far higher than before. A standard high pressure sodium lamp post bulb runs around $2 and is plug an play, anyone can swap them out. An equivalent LED street lamp bulb costs over $100 and many lighting manufacturers insist you need to pay one of their servicemen to swap the bulb, or they will refuse to honor any future warranty request.

                          Yes, LED's have some advantages, but trust me, they are not being pushed because they help you. If LED's could compete and win in the marketplace, they wouldn't have had to have federal legislation passed mandating them.

                          6 days later

                          I am very sensitive to such lightings because it gave me the same eye hurting issue when looking to the monitor before i solved my problem with monitors. All white lighting in my room and work are problem. Luckily i replace the room one with warm one and didn't install any on top of my sitting on computer. The miracle is that the new workspace has a bright white lighting just on top of my disk but zero issue. I will try to know what type of light is that.

                          martin Sorry for the slight off topic, Martin, but can that device be used to measure flicker on screens, too? As in tens or houndreds of KHz, or other smaller flicker like inversion? If so, it could be a cheaper alternative for me than a portable oscilloscope.

                            chahahc I think it probably depends on the person if the difference in light spectrum necessarily causes eye strain, because in my case when my issues reemerged in full swing three years ago, I tested dozens of various light bulbs (LED, fluorescent and incandescent) and even though I noticed differences in how much my eyes were strained, all of them including the incandescent ones strained my eyes anyway. The only light bulbs that I bought which don't strain my eyes are the flicker-free Waveform light bulbs which are LED. However, I do think that regular exposure to flickering LED light can cause someone to be sensitive to any type of flickering light, no matter if it's fluorescent or incandescent, because for decades I experienced little to no issues before the world changed to LED light sources.

                              Also, it's not always the light source, but it can be the reflection that ends up hitting your eye. In a room with the right wall color and reflectivity of floor even an incandescent light can trigger me. Thats how I learned the light source is not the issue (nor is flicker)

                              • degen replied to this.
                              • KM likes this.

                                degen I can only speak from personal experience. Reflection/intensity of the light is a big variable (or has been for me)

                                Examples:

                                In my back basement, I installed some overhead florescent lighting. 0 issues, I am down there for hours and hours at a time. We have the basement waterproofed, and they added a reflective white plastic material on the walls. The room now instantly gave me a migraine. I cut the plastic down, and the problem vanished. No change to the lighting, the light bulbs, or anything in the environment, just the amount of reflected light that hit my eye

                                In my front basement I have LED bulbs that cause me no issues whatsoever. I installed the same bulbs in the lights in the gaming area of my front basement, where the drop ceiling is 1 inch lower. That 1 inch of difference, coupled with being closer to the walls and resulting in more light reflectivity, causes me instant symptoms. Thats with the same bulb, the same fixture, the same ceiling, I even wired the whole lighting setup myself so I know even the wiring is identical.

                                Recently installed overhead lights in my family room, I put in incandescent bulbs which to date have never cause me an issue. Instantly triggered my migraines. The room has a very waxed floor, and the walls are painted yellow. The same exact bulbs (like, I unscrewed them and moved them myself) in a standing floor lamp in the same room? ZERO issues. Put that same bulb in an overhead lamp? Instantly unusable.

                                I have also inadvertently rendered computer monitors unusable by painting the room itself. I had a Sony monitor in my old office that was panted a light blue, used it all day, every day, with no issues.Painted the room green, the monitor was completely unusable and I had to sell it.

                                This dovetails into my theory that color of light has a major impact on our condition. Different wavelengths of light effect us, and the intensity of those wavelengths, and when a combination of a particular color and intensity of that color hits our eye, it triggers our brain to misinterpret the visual input and go haywire, resulting in symptoms.

                                For me at least this hypothesis holds far more water than flicker or PWM or dithering. I know a lot of people are really hooked on those theories, but they just seem a little convenient as scapegoats. I think the folks who found relief by eliminating flicker or PWM were actually getting relief by reducing light intensity and that is what is going on, but again thats just a hypothesis, I cant prove it

                                    dev