Usable laptop- MacBook Pro M1

lougro

I'm technically cross-posting, but I posted first in an older but also relevant thread and wanted to bring it to folks' attention here as well. It seems to me like making individual calls to Apple isn't going to do anything. What we would need to do is publicly pressure them. Like with a petition. They've already implemented NightShift, which means they know there are some issues with new LED displays. It is a silent concession. It seems to me that:

It should be possible to offer devices with PWM-free displays (even for more $$$, many of us would gladly pay)
It should be possible to provide device specs for all products which specify blue light, PWM, and temporal dithering exposure for users
If it's possible to use ProMotion to increase and decrease PWM up to 120Hz it should be possible to give us a config option to permanently set PWM at 120Hz. What I've read about ProMotion is that when you're not scrolling or doing something with high animation the refresh rate actually drops below 50Hz. Which is not what we want. It seems best for vision to have a consistent, high refresh rate.
It should be possible to have a setting to turn off "fake" 10-bit color display implemented with temporal dithering.

I've drafted text for a petition. If anyone wants to review the text and let me know if there's something about the technology I am wording wrong or don't understand, that would be helpful. Once it's revised we can put it online somewhere and sign and publicize it. If nothing else, it would be a great opportunity to see how many of us there actually are.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JZIASxaEfieQo2Eic8lILN_YnosF2IAJP5czP4vVbEM/edit?usp=sharing

Moe3224

karthi3219 I am not sure if it is related to the monitor itself, I think it is the graphics card of the laptop itself. This call is based on my experience, I use the same monitor to test the MBA m1 and a windows laptop. I can work on the monitor for 6+ hours when connected to my Windows laptop no problem, when I connect my MBA m1 I can't look at the screen over 20 mins and my eyes will turn red(bloodshot) and itchy.

Business-Eyes

Moe3224 I think you are right, same for me, different laptops same monitor different experience, also even different games cause issues, e.g apex cause eye strain, spiderman I play for hours without issues.

lougro

@ryans @karthi3219 Based on the response I have from the developer of SwitchResX there's no way to revert to 8-bit color (turn off dithering) with settings on the M1 MBP. Not SwitchResX "Millions of colors" setting and not sRGB. In fact, the "Millions of colors" setting is no longer available. And it's not possible to import color profiles from older MBPs.

The video driver in the Apple silicon macs doesn't manage resolutions with 8 bit color depths (millions). There's no way to get anything else than 10 bit color depths (billions) on these Macs. It's not a limit in SwitchResX, it's the Apple way of doing things: implement new features and progressively remove previous ones. There's no way for any application to make this possible again sorry - it has to be done in the driver and only Apple can write drivers on these Macs

degen

Why not try installing Ashai Linux, the only Linux distribution working on macOS on Apple Silicon? It has no video / GPU driver yet. If it helped, it would lend credence to our theory that other than the panel is involved.

Linux on Apple Silicon

You DON’T have to make it your primary operating system. It installs in parallel to your macOS installation, you don’t lose anything.

There is a long delay for me to get an M2 MBA so I can’t test it yet.

karthi3219

degen I think, I don't have option to install new OS in my laptop since it's company provided one. Let me try and see.

Neuromancer

JonnyT Funny thing - I have no troubles with any other laptop (didn't try oled) but with the m1 macbook. It gives me a headache.

Sentiny

I have same issues with my MB Pro M1 and I also have hidden BVD issues.

Tried every hint that I found, this is that worked for me:

Set refresh rate to 47,95hz
Make custom Photography Preset with Colour Gamut "Rec.709/sRGB" and SDR transfer function "sRGB ICC V2"

I've made different presets for various luminance levels from 50 to 500 to have an ability to control brightness.

May be it's just a placebo, who knows. You guys can also try it.

But anyway this PWM display is really bad for my eyes, still thinking about switching my laptop to MBA M2 since it doesn't have PWM, or at least doesn't have low frequency PWM. Did anyone try to switch and how was ur feelings with MBA M2?

ryans

Sentiny and I also have hidden BVD issues.

Have you seen an optometrist? What was your diagnosis?

Sentiny

ryans

As i remember it right, it’s called Latent strabismus (heterophoria). I have issues only with one eye, symptoms can be worse when I’m tired or didn’t sleep enough.

Macbook Pro M1 is the first device that caused that sever issues for me like dizziness and disorientation for few seconds. I also have issues with OLEDs, but not that bad.

I also noticed problems with my new 3080ti and other new gen GPUs, but they are all about eye strain and more eye fatigue (I guess cause of dithering), they don’t cause that sever sympthoms as Macbook Pro m1 14 for me. This new Macbook is a first device for long time that has PWM display, everything else (laptops, phones, monitors) was flickerfree. May be pwm is the main issue, may be something else, that’s why I want to try pwm-free MBA M2 to find out, is it display, gpu or OS problem.

Donux

Fast forward to 2024-10-16, does this thread still stand true - "Usable laptop - Macbook Pro m1"? Or can we shove it back to Tim Cooks garage so he could continue "innovating"?

JonnyT

Donux for me it is still usable. If I use it for too long I still feel naeuseous but I can work on it. In addition to the above I need to wear anti blue light glasses- I don’t know why but they make a huge difference. (No apps work for me only the glasses ‘ darmore Blue Light Blocking Glasses’ on Amazon. I also need to have keyboard back light off or that triggers it too!

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

JonnyT This is really fascinating to me, I feel like your issues are very unique compared to most others in the forum…

in my case, the 14-inch MBP M1 remains the worst screen I've ever used to this day, one of the few that was bad enough to not only strain me but also prevent me from reading coherently at all!! (the only other laptop screen that reached these "can't-read" levels of bad for me was the Surface Laptop 7 Snapdragon 13"/15" Sharp IPS panel)

I even have problems when I have to look at my friends' 14-inch MBPs (usually it's OK for me to glance at other screens if it's quick, but not this one)

14-inch MBP was the first time the issues were so exceedingly severe and dehabilitating to seriously make me want to re-evaluate all tech I used, and put in the effort to find more comfortable screens

(Retrospectively, I definitely experienced screen issues prior to 14-inch MBP, but had no idea screens/lights were the cause & always blamed something else like sleep or exercise. The 14-inch was bad enough to make me realize that it was undeniably caused by the screen)

So I'm actually shocked that it's still working for you! I wonder what's different about your vision that makes your experience so different

Donux

IMO, good screen should work with standard settings and be completely tollerable. My last machine was like that. Always used Color LCD profile. Back then could not even imagine that ever I would need to do so much tinkering.

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