Edit by degen: Posts (1-12) have been collected from two threads as they converge on related themes. I have created the thread title.

A: Apple (or Microsoft or Google or Dell or Acer or any other hardware manufacturer) don't care.

B: No one has any definitive proof that flicker, dithering, or any other hypothesis on here is the actual cause of the situation.

I've gotten pretty high up in several companies discussing my problem, I've spoken directly with OS designers and engineers at both Apple and Microsoft, and it's always the same. They will recommend the usual suite of "standard" suggestions (update your drivers, get a monitor with a higher refresh rate, stuff like that) and when none of it works they tell you then don't know what to do and that's that.

Mrak0020 Please do contact Apple Accessibility and tell them. The more noise we make, the more likely they will look into it.

      as long as we maintain that everybody is different, has a different source of the problem, this will never be resolved.

      would be nice if PWM and temporal dithering i.e. flicker would gain more momentum. At least we could resolve the issue for most people.

      It is frustrating that I have told numerous times to Noteboockcheck that PWM over 500hz is clearly a problem for most who are sensitive to flicker and that nowadays the lack of PWM is not a guarantee that a display does not cause problems, but they continue to spread misinformation that a display would be ok to those sensitive to flicker, if it either does not have PWM or has a PWM over 500Hz.

      Maybe we could start by contacting all Noteboockcheck and explain that PWM over 500hz Is a problem and that in addition they have introduced some other form of flicker that is also a problem to those who are sensitive to flicker.

      But since so many people here claim that they are not sensitive to flicker but have some other issue with the display that causes the same problem as flicker, we are not even closer to resolving the problem.

        Maxx I agree with that. I would love to start with just PWM and Temporal Dithering.

          For me its definitely flicker. Whether its from oled, bad led bulbs or dithering. Its the main source of my problem.

          I'm not liking the new emphasis on eye conditions. It just gives an excuse to manufacturers to ignore us and declare the problem is our own. And they can't do anything about it.

          Lol. Manufacturers are not doing anything anyway, they need no excuses as they do not know about any of the problems except PWM.
          Taking action requires, well, taking action. There's no organization, no workgroup, no team of superheroes who can do this instead of the very person who has a problem.
          You have the problem with flicker, you collect the evidence and you contact manufacturers, review sites, journalists, you organize other people into a workgroup etc. There's no other way.
          I do not see how the existence of other problems or eye conditions can prevent flicker sufferers from resolving the flicker problem.

          What are my rights and what can I do besides simply not using the devices?

          Sorry to say, but zero. You are part of an extreme minority of people who have an issue with these devices. The manufacturers do not care beyond a cursory level. I have been in talks directly with engineers at Apple and Microsoft, on Zoom calls with the people who code the OS, and nothing comes of it. They will toss out some ideas that you have already found to not work, they will offer their sympathies, but in the end they are not going to alter a product used by literally billions of people that is worth hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue to try and accomodate you. It isn't going to happen.

          And you do not have a "right" to a pain free Windows or Apple product experience. You are 100% to not use products that cause you discomfort. I can't drive any car made after roughly 2010 because of ubiquitous addition of screens in cars. I don't have a right to tell Ford to build me a car without a screen in it. I simply am in the used car market for the rest of my life.

          You need to focus on helping yourself, and carving out products and a routine that does not trigger you and keeps you healthy and pain free, and then accept those are parameters you ill need to live your life in. There is plenty of room for a fulfilling, happy life without using Windows 10 or an iPhone.

            as long as we maintain that everybody is different, has a different source of the problem, this will never be resolved.

            But that is the truth. Flicks, PWN, and dithering cause me ZERO issues whatsoever. I suspect they actually are the cause of far fewer peoples issues than we think and there is actually something else going on that IS more common, but I can't prove that. Flicker is a very convenient scapegoat that intuitively "makes sense" to a lot of people, but I find those explanations are rarely correct.

            ryans They will not. I have spoken on a Zoom call directly with Apple engineers. They will listen, offer some "suggestions", but they are not going to modify the flagship product of a trillion dollar company because it hurts our eyes.

            I have had drastically different experiences with minor Apple OS upgrades. In general it's only to the downside, i.e. on version can be working fine, there is a forced upgrade, and the syste, is now unusable, and never returns to it's former useability no matter how many other upgrades there are

                ensete They will toss out some ideas that you have already found to not work, they will offer their sympathies, but in the end they are not going to alter a product used by literally billions of people that is worth hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue to try and accomodate you. It isn't going to happen.

                I disagree with this. Why does Apple make VoiceOver (screen reader for visual impaired)? The amount of money Apple makes off of blind / visually impaired people using it is much less than the team of engineers it takes to build and maintain it! Apple does care about accessibility.

                If we keep following up with Apple Accessibility, they'll start taking us more seriously. It costs nothing except a little bit of our time.

                Doing nothing is giving up. I totally understand as I've been at this for years and close to giving up myself. I would have without this community.

                    ensete but they are not going to modify the flagship product of a trillion dollar company because it hurts our eyes.

                    If a software toggle could fix our issues, they absolutely would, given they understand the "problem". They don't need to make changes for everyone.

                    If Apple didn't care, they wouldn't make VoiceOver. Making products for a minority like blind people is not profitable. But they do it anyway.

                    Calling Apple Accessibility is the least anyone here can do to get a chance of resolving our problems. Costs nothing except a little bit of your time. The more people do it, the better chance they'll look into it.

                      ensete

                      Out of curiosity, how did you manage to get a zoom call with the engineers? I called Apple Accessibility recently, and they seemed more receptive than they've ever been when I was able to provide specific diagnostic information (BVD, Exophoria, etc). I'd give anything for the chance to explain this stuff to them in a call.

                      Also, why do you think they wouldn't take any steps to address this if we're able to isolate the issue? They've had a pretty good record of making accessibility accommodations in the past.

                          degen changed the title to Is advocacy worthwhile / Strategies .
                          12 days later

                          ryans Been meaning to say this for a while.

                          Personally. I'm in the middle. I believe changes at "big tech companies" in our interest are theoretically possible, but it requires the right "connections" to the right people and empirical research. Without a clear cause and effect relationship it's very easy for project managers or even engineers to dismiss this as just "oh look a bunch of people with damaged eyes, nothing to see here", while approaching companies having the right research in hand I suspect makes it much easier to influence change when they can't just write it off as "not our problem" or many other things.

                            bkdo

                            My employer has a master level services agreement with both Microsoft and Apple. I can bypass thier geenral support staff and go right to the engineers.

                            If Apple didn't care, they wouldn't make VoiceOver. Making products for a minority like blind people is not profitable. But they do it anyway.

                            That's not the same thing at all. They will put in accessibility controls for well understood phenomenon, like voice readers for the blind. We have no solid explanation for our symptoms. Every single claim on this website can easily be married to a counter claim on this website. And even then, they aren't going to bang out a customer version of their OS just for you.

                            Calling Apple Accessibility is the least anyone here can do to get a chance of resolving our problems

                            It's a waste of time. We don't know what the problem is, and they don't know what is causing the problem.

                            Doing nothing is giving up

                            That is absolutely false and I take offense to you insinuating I have "given up" by having a realistic expectation of the support we will get from Apple and Microsoft based on my 1 on 1 conversations with senior support staff and engineers at both companies. If you want to live in a fantasy world where you can call a 1-800 number and solve a problem that has perplexed our community for decades, go right ahead.

                            The correct approach is to identify what YOUR triggers are, and avoid those triggers, so you can live a healthy and pain free life.

                                ensete Totally get your point. I was just trying to say, if we make enough noise to Apple Accessibility, they might investigate it. I don't think they would have a custom build for us ever, but if a software toggle could do something, they might do it. I don't have high hopes for it.

                                I'm sure you know since we've both been around here for years -- I definitely didn't mean to offend you (or anyone)! I apologize. We're both just trying to make the best of the (really) crap situation we've been dealt!!

                                    ryans Hey men, I understand what you trying to do, I'm down for whatever , I would pay alot to not deal with this anymore

                                      dev