I went to BestBuy to check out the Sony 2016 TVs. According to Rtings, the X850D is the highest end model that doesn't use PWM. The PQ was very average, mostly because the blacks were poor. That would undoubtedly improve with proper calibration, but probably not enough to my liking (I was a fan of plasma for black levels before my eye problems, as I like to watch at low brightness in a dark room, something plasma's absolutely excel at). There was a X700D next to the X850D and my mom pointed out the dithering on the X700D to me! I didn't even mention it to her! After inspecting both it was clear that there was heavy dithering on the X700D, but not on the X850D, which was very stable. The X700D uses an IPS panel and the X850D uses a VA panel. Perhaps that is the explanation? The programming was the same on both TVs.

The X930D, which Rtings says has a PWM frequency of 730 Hz, was miles better in PQ. It's what I would consider to be a good TV. I don't care about 4K or HDR so at this price point I would rather score myself a good plasma second-hand if it were for personal use (something I'm thinking about doing in case my TV fails). Anyway, at this point my eyes were hurting from the overhead lighting so I can't tell if that level of PWM was acceptable to me. Also the demo mode calibration is of course very bright on all the TVs and that will cause me problems regardless.

    8 days later

    MagnuM Could it be possible the source of your eye strain is not the TV but the device that is attached to the TV?

        @MagnuM Wow, we must be two alter-egos. I happen to have a Dell U2410 as well (it's a great monitor!), and I have almost the exact same setup as you do with f.lux and the brightness and contrast levels. I've used this monitor for many years now and have not experienced any problems.

        I have a Sony LCD-LED TV ( KDL-55W950B ) and while it's great for movie-watching, the "eyegraines" are a big problem when gaming. Just like you, these "max headaches" can last for days and can seriously hamper my productivity at work. I recently purchased a PS4 and this is very noticeable, while PC gaming has never been much of a problem on my old U2410, although I do still get fatigued faster than most people.

        I've since connected my PS4 directly to the U2410 and I'm playing the games there, which is much more comfortable. I think my gaming experience (with the fast movements) can be comparable to what you would experience when watching a hockey game.

        After doing some research, I thought the problem had everything to do with the PWM of my LCD-LED TV. So it's disappointing to hear that such "LED symptoms" happen with PWM-free OLED TVs as well, as I had been intending to purchase one of the new LG OLEDs by the end of 2017. If PWM isn't the problem, then what is?

        I also used a retina MBP at work for about a year. Despite it having a LED screen, I thought it was an amazing display and had absolutely no problems, so I don't know what's happening there. I can also have my face buried in my OnePlus One phone for an entire day and have very little problems. Perhaps it is because these displays have a high-frequency PWM unlike my Sony TV which probably has a low-frequency PWM — so perhaps my particular problem is related to PWM while your problem is related to some other characteristic of LED screens.

        Have you experienced the LED symptoms with smartphone LCD-LED screens as well, or with LED-backlit laptop screen like the rMBP?

          Monie Actually the all LG OLED TV's use heavy PWM. I wouldn't give up on OLED until we see some PWM-free sets.

              degen Where did you read that? I just looked up rting.com's review of the LG B6, and they didn't find PWM. Well, there is some kind of flicker, but it looks more like the smaller 60 Hz flicker from the OnePlus 3, or Samsung Galaxy Edge with the custom PWM-disabling kernel.
              http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/b6/b6-backlight-large.jpg
              Sadly they didn't measure the flicker index. The spikes look a little greater than I'd expect.

                  I can confirm that an LG OLED PWM caused eye strain to me. I had to return it.

                    Maxx

                    degen

                    Oh, that's sad!

                    Do we know if any of the new LG and Sony OLED TVs showcased at CES are without PWM?

                        can't remember anymore, the first cheaper full hd curved one. but I checked the new 4k models with a DSLR and they have the exact same pwm.

                          Maxx Thanks for the reply.

                          One question: Are you sure that the new 4K models that you saw were OLED models, or were they LED?

                          I'm asking because the difference could be critical. The Rtings reviews indicate that the OLED TVs don't come with PWM. However, the LED models probably do, which might have been what you saw.

                          • Maxx replied to this.

                              Monie Absolutely sure. If you have seen one, you cannot make the mistake of believing that a normal LED would be an OLED or vice versa.

                              The Rtings guys don't know what they are talking about - even in their pictures they show the 60 Hz PWM exactly as with One Plus 3, but they claim there is no PWM. I think they are just making the assumption that when it does not flicker very agressively, it does not cause problems. Well, I had the LG OLED at HOME for 2 weeks, and I simply could not use it. I of course had disable all the TrueMotion related things that cause flickering too.

                                Monie another dell u24xx-happy led-sensitive twin here. i do have a theory that we're all related - we should have a meetup... #2 problem after PWM is "Temporal Dithering" - the way 6-bit screens flicker/alternate colors to emulate all the ones available natively on 8 bit screens

                                    i have the same thing with oled screens- they seem like the beautiful answer for the first half hour and then the effect hits you like a brick...

                                    Sorry to hear you are getting symptoms. I had hopes for OLED myself.

                                    I have tried FL-41 tints, in my case it actually made my symptoms much worse. I was also tested extensively by an Irlen practitioner, the first pair of lenses we came up with actually 100% cured me for 3 months, then gradually lost effectiveness. I tried 3 other re-tests and re-tints and was never able to get any relief from any of them, so I abandoned it. Theraspecs, Gunnar glasses, and Blublockers all failed to offer any relief. Migralenses help a little bit, they are what I use now.

                                    5 days later

                                    KM The same devices were connected to my old Sony Bravia, and I had no issues watching that. The OLED gives a very specific eyeball pinch after a while.

                                    As an update though, I seem to be having less problems with the TV. I'm not sure if my watching time just happens to be less as of late, or that I'm just getting used to the TV. Another notable change though is that I turned off that fake-looking TrueMotion setting. My brain always hated that (gave me nausea on my Series 6 40" Samsung LCD I bought in 2008. Never had problems since)

                                    • KM likes this.

                                      Monie Maybe we are twins, but who's the evil one? >=)

                                      I only knew of the Dell U2410 because my workplace had rolled it out to the whole floor. I would imagine that a company puts a lot of research into the most comfortable monitors to stare at for 40 hours a week, every week, as to not have their employees whining and complaining constantly about viewing comfort. I liked my work monitor so much that I later bought one for home!

                                      Your guess is as good as mine as to what the problem is. A PWM-free LED is worse than my PWM-positive Dell U2410. My guess is either an "allergy" to the spectrum of light produced by an LED, temporal dithering, or some other elusive mystery!

                                      I don't think the Retina MBP has any PWM. Your OnePlus phone may not have it either. I also can't detect any in my iPhone 6S+ I will eventually get problems with my 6S+, and it does feel like the "LED-pain" I talked about. I also thought it might be due to the smaller screen and smaller text. However, I remember the most comfortable iPhone as being the iPhone 3G. I lost it in a Canadian snowbank once when it fell out of my phone case =(

                                      I agree with your assessment that you seem more susceptible to PWM, while my problem seems to be something else. After losing my iPhone 3G (which I think is CCFL), my next phone was the iPhone 5, and I had to keep that phone at its minimum brightness, or I would eventually get my "LED pain" symptoms. It's the same deal with the iPhone 6S+, but if I only use it for the few minutes a day I need to, then I'm relatively OK.

                                        5 days later

                                        my symptom is headaches, no eye strain.

                                        I now bought an LG 55EG910V OLED TV. I can see what you talked about. It's harsh on my eyes - it doesn't feel too different from any standard LED-backlit monitor. I tried many kinds of settings and am still searching for a solution, but this is going to be tough. It's in no way comparable to my OnePlus 3.

                                        I learned LG, in their TVs, use white OLEDs only + color filters.
                                        I also found this short article where they claim their OLED TVs emit 3x times less blue light than backlit devices: http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/english/news/ict/6908-blue-light-hazard-lcd-tvs-may-emit-3x-harmful-light-oled-tvs
                                        As there are no further links or sources, I don't know if it's true.

                                        Eyes are red, burning, and if I watch for too long I get small headaches.
                                        I plugged in my PC with a supposedly still "good" setup (Windows 7 + old NVIDIA card), but this didn't help at all. It seems the eye strain is related either to the OLED light or to LG's "WebOS", which is probably creating the final video output.

                                        I'd say it's the PWM flickering that is the problem with the LG OLED's. It's clealry detectable with a DSLR.

                                        dev