Photo/Video mirrorless cameras

engine_er

Alyosha2001

I'm supporting this thread because I've been in a similar situation for a long time - I can't find a mirrorless with a display and EVF that doesn't give me dizziness or a headache. I'm a Nikon photographer, and unfortunately I had to rule out all the Z series models (Z6, Z6II, etc.). I also tried to stick a matte film on the display, but it didn't help. That's why I had to buy a Nikon D780 SLR.

However, I'm looking for a backup camera and considering that nowadays I can't choose, but the camera chooses me, so it would be nice to "write" camera models that are "usable". There certainly won't be many of them.

Btw.: I also tried the Fujifilm X-S10, but the display was very unpleasant for the eyes (although it could be adjusted in great detail) and I also did not like the quality of the camera.

P.S.: Have you tried the Fujifilm X-T30II (supposed to have a new display) or the Sony A6400?
You write that you tested the Sony A7 III - so the display is fine?

Alyosha2001

I haven't try X-T30II, didn't find it available when I was searching for cameras. The a7III and a7IV seem fine and usuable for me, I don't have them, but my colleagues do and I used them for short periods.

I currenly have and use the a7c, with a matte screen protector. The interesting fact about it is that, while in photo mode it is tollerable (like not perfect, slightly tiring - maybe because of the high brightness - but usuable for long enough periods), in video mode it is without issues, there is a clear difference. It feels something like the Panasonic G85. So yeah, we could put a7c to the usable list, along with a7III and a7IV.

I'm interested, too, about the a6400 and even more the anounced a6700, for secondary cameras.

Fujis are good for stright out of camera jpegs, but I don't like them that much as they seem to have unnatural colors and on video they seem weird to me. I remember playing with X-T3 in showroom and seemd to enjoy the bigger LCD; not so much it's size and weight compared to X-T30.

I probed side by side the LCD's of a7c and a7III and IV and found the signals just the same. The only difference was the higher brightness on a7c. I don't know why, it might be a fake impression, but I don't use it on the lowest step (-2) - although the signal is the same on oscilloscope, I have an unexplained rejection of it. The settings of Display Quality and Antiflicker Shoot seem to have no impact, but I also avoid changing them 🤭

ocean10

Alyosha2001

Supporting this thread as well. I'd love to upgrade my DSLRs (Canon 5D MkIVs) not sure I'll be able to.

On a related note I bought a Sony RX100 VII two weeks ago to have a small but capable camera to carry around (my problems with screens mean I can't use the most up to date iPhones with the good cameras). The LCD on the Sony made me sick/dizzy/uncomfortable pretty quickly. I think it's potentially the same LCD they use on the a7c. I eventually returned it because it was not comfortable enough to be enjoyable to use.

I switched it with the Canon G5x Mk II. This screen also gives me a "warm" and uncomfortable feeling. Not quite as bad so I might see if I can get used to it. Oddly, I don't have a strong/immediate reaction to the EVF when I usually do with most cameras. I've only tested the EVF briefly though.

engineer

Alyosha2001

I would also like to ask if you have tested the LCD displays of any other models, e.g. G95 or mirrorless cameras from Canon?

The Opple Light Master III is coming to me soon, so when I have the chance I'll test everything I have at hand 🙂

engineer

ocean10

It would be very good to know if individual brand models share displays with each other - e.g. mentioned Sony A7 IV and RX100 VII. Because if so, then the experiences mentioned above are mutually exclusive.

I would also like to add that I also tested the Panasonic G100 and its display is also very straining on the eyes. I assume that rather older models will use displays that are not yet "tuned" and are therefore more pleasing to the eyes (my experience Nikon D7200 vs all mirrorless Z series).

Alyosha2001

So, to conclude, the Sony's a7(x) are very usuable to me, even the a7c that I currently own.

The G95 as far as I know uses OLED and when I wanted to test it in showroom it didn't have working battery and they couldn't swap it, due to the anti-theft.

I saw and tried Canon R5C and found it bery comfortable, but did not have the oscilloscope with me. A friend of mine has it, so maybe I'll test it.

Tobiyas

Hey @Alyosha2001

Wait please do not close this thread yet! 😅

(strangely I didn't even realize your thread exist until today)

I have testing the RX100 M7 and ZV-1 LCD screen. On default brightness, I noticed there is immediate discomfort. The discomfort got was even worse at -1 brightness, and terrible at -2. At +2 brightness though, there is tolerable minor strain.

The Sony A6400 strangely did not gave me any problems at all.

However for the Sony Ev-10, at default brightness I immediately got a migraine upon 10 seconds of use. I tried setting it to +2 brightness and there was no improvement at all. Thus it seems that it is using DC Dimming at a fixed low flickering hertz with high modulation (or you would call as strong oscillation). This is rather peculiar for me since I would assume that Sony Ev-10 is loosely based on A6100. And the A6400 is totally fine for me. This is coming from me that suffers from light sensitivity and even 41 khz with high modulation is still me problematic for me.

I read through some of your past comments and I think you might have a solid idea on oscillation and self conducting testing on display flickers.

Thus far from your experience, is an oscilloscope able to detect flickering other than PWM? For instance, there are other form of flickers from temporal light artifact like panel overdrive. For instance, panel overdrive which is software based runs at a constant 20khz regardless of brightness, while on top of a PWM screen/ non PWM screen.

I am currently looking buying a Leica TL2 that supports up to 1/40,000 shutter speed (with its e-shutter) sometime in future. This is to detect for line artifacts from PWM that is below 19,300 hertz. I also intend to detect other display driver below this threshold as well. Thus far do you have any experience with Leica's ?

I am currently looking at new Fujifilm X-t5 where its shutter speed can go ever fastest at an astonishing 1/180,000 (fastest record in the world). If I used as the measuring tool equipment for flickering, it is perfect because I can visually see through the view finder if there are any flickering below 87,000 hertz. At such high frequency, I strongly doubt even someone like me with heightened sensitivity will be able to be affected by it anymore.

Thus would you be able to e.g. use your connections to find out the if the Fujifilm X-t5 is good?

Alyosha2001

Tobiyas Thus far from your experience, is an oscilloscope able to detect flickering other than PWM? For instance, there are other form of flickers from temporal light artifact like panel overdrive. For instance, panel overdrive which is software based runs at a constant 20khz regardless of brightness, while on top of a PWM screen/ non PWM screen.

Hi there! Yes, the oscilloscope can detect even lcd inversion, but the thing is that they are all added in s single graph. For ease of use I set it to alternative current, so it centers on the display.

I know nothing about Leica's, nor the X-T4/5 and don't have colleagues that use them. What I can do is go and measure them in the showroom, but it's a hit and miss, since there are ambient lights (oddly for a video showroom they flicker 😉) ), they might not have batteries at that time or not be available. I will try to go from time to time, best it would be at noon.

Tobiyas At such high frequency, I strongly doubt even someone like me with heightened sensitivity will be able to be affected by it anymore.

I wouldn't count on that, personally I measured 41kHz that bothered me a lot, very much.

I think the most affordable and concludent setup is a portable oscilloscope with a BPW34, it's around 180-190$, rather than an aexpensive camera+lens. Unless that camera is used to it's full, but wouldn't advise buying it just for the flicker.

Good news about the a6400! It would be very usefull as a 2nd/broll one. 🤝 🫡

Later night edit: Sony a6700 was just launched!

Tobiyas

Alyosha2001

Yes, the oscilloscope can detect even lcd inversion, but the thing is that they are all added in s single graph. For ease of use I set it to alternative current, so it centers on the display.

I think the most affordable and concludent setup is a portable oscilloscope with a BPW34, it's around 180-190$, rather than an aexpensive camera+lens. Unless that camera is used to it's full, but wouldn't advise buying it just for the flicker.

Excellent, wonderful! This is great news for me!

Do you mind sharing your setup? I've looked everywhere and it seems that all the portable oscilloscope have a maximum limitation of not higher than 40 khz. Some even stopped measuring the flicker hertz entirely when light source is above 2500 hertz.

Some of the portable oscilloscope just simply put the flicker hertz as "0" when this happens. (Hence this mislead some really extremely loud and obnoxious crowd claiming that their X device has "0" PWM but they are still getting eyestrain and headache)

Yup I think you are absolutely right. Spending that much amount to detect flicker is really not worth it when there are much better options at much cheaper cost.

What I can do is go and measure them in the showroom, but it's a hit and miss, since there are ambient lights (oddly for a video showroom they flicker

Oh thank you for much for this! Btw sorry I think I may have indicated incorrectly that I tested the viewfinder. Sorry I meant the tilting screen. I have stopped using the viewfinder entirely after they have swapped it from the optical projection to OLED. I am only interested in knowing if the LCD screen will affect me 😁

I wouldn't count on that, personally I measured 41kHz that bothered me a lot, very much.

I think you have made an excellent point. If you were affected at 41khz, and 41khz isn't even your threshold to be no longer affected by the flicker, that means your flicker threshold could be way much higher, say 119khz etc. Hypothetically speaking, if yours is really 119khz, one will need at least 1/246000 shutter speed in order to detect any flickering artifact under 119khz.

Damn ok I guess the Fuji X-T5 brings little added benefits over the Leica TL2 since it seems that as long as the modulation is high as long, for very small percentage of people it makes little different between a 20khz and a 80 khz. Its the same for me as well. Assuming that all the screen oscillation is strong, anything below 240 hertz are equally as bad and made no difference to me. They'll all cause me to have migraine for up to 72 hours. 1000 hertz is an improvement but still persistent headache ever after 24 hours of using it. Between 2400 hertz to 21000 hertz is an improvement but headache will still last for 7 hours before it subside. Above 32khz there is still some eye strain and tension headache while using but it'll go off shortly after I stopped using the device.

But I still need a camera anyway for travelling and Leica TL2 is perfect for me. Camera images are really pleasing. The fast shutter speed of 1/40000 which can will also help me find a suitable place to sit with the least flickering while outside(detect up to 19khz flickering). I found that I am most sensitive to anything below 19khz anyway. I tend to get persistent dizziness and brain fog while under such lighting.

Yes the a6700 was just announced! I think the most visible change is porting over the AI processing features available smartphone to their mirrorless lineup. I'm also interested to know what else is new.

Alyosha2001

Tobiyas Do you mind sharing your setup? I've looked everywhere and it seems that all the portable oscilloscope have a maximum limitation of not higher than 40 khz. Some even stopped measuring the flicker hertz entirely when light source is above 2500 hertz.

I use a Miniware DS213 oscilloscope with a BPW34 photodiode and a resistor in parallel as shown here:

https://ledstrain.org/d/234-portable-oscilloscope-to-detect-pwm/4

Most of the mainstram oscilloscopes measure up to 20-40MHz, so that should be enough for now, I think

Tobiyas But I still need a camera anyway for travelling and Leica TL2 is perfect for me. Camera images are really pleasing. The fast shutter speed of 1/40000 which can will also help me find a suitable place to sit with the least flickering while outside(detect up to 19khz flickering). I found that I am most sensitive to anything below 19khz anyway. I tend to get persistent dizziness and brain fog while under such lighting.

3500$ for a crop sensor with a kit lens does not seem attractive to me, as I think pictures in other than bright sunlight should not be optimal, but if maybe if you find a very good sh deal and like it's portability, it should do. But definitely not a pro camera, priced as pro. And you should also check the L lens availability in you area.

engine_er

Going back a bit to the point of this thread - I'm glad I brought this topic up again, because it's very useful and practical for us - photographers, to know which displays are "usable". It would also be good to gradually write a list of camera models that do not strain the eyes and are also suitable for (all-day) photography.

Alyosha2001

engine_er Agreed!

Sunspark

What about a rangefinder camera where you can peer through glass? They still exist. Is that an option?

Alyosha2001

Sunspark I, for one, do mostly video, but also photo, so a rangefinder for my needs is not. Leica and Fuji's are photo oriented, and not all have interchangeable lens, not to mention other accessories. So, for hobby, maybe, but nor for work. Even their size would put you in a bad position in front of the beneficiary 🫢 😆

As this thread was named "mirrorless", as a side note I also have a high suspicion that the current Canon DSLR's are pretty easy on eyes. Maybe somebody can confirm/infirm that…

engine_er

Has anyone tested the Sony A7II display? Because I'm thinking about buying it, since the price of the A7II+ 28-70 set is the same as the A6400+ 16-50.