hey, everybody. Most of you know, that I'm a very active part of the eyestrain discussion since from the beginning I've startet the intel thread in 2014. I've done so much research and what can I say?! - nothing! Only I can speculate that the eyestrain problem has to do something with pwm, dithering and some weird things going on in the graphics driver. However thats nothing more than that I knew in 2014. Also I can see that more and more people joining the ledstrain forums and are starting threads about topics some of us already discussed very intensely long time ago without any conclusion. So, I don't give up if it's that what you would think now. I'm just trying to find connections why we can "see" things others can't see. I found some doctors who are very interested in that topic and want to help me, help us. As I result I frequently come up with new theories and explanations and try them out on me. Next thing I'm going to do is an amygdalectomy and shortly after that a nasal cartilage operation, cause I get to less air through my nose. Long story short. May some of you give me a brief overview about their health? Don't be afraid, its completely anonymous - I'm just interested if there are any connections. So please tell me about your general state of health. do you often get sick? what about your temporomandibular joint? what about your tonsils? do you have problems breathing through the nose? just everythin you think could be interesting. An additionally non technical way of thinking could'n be a bad thing.

Hello. You said something interesting. I have noticed that it helps a great deal keeping the migraines at bay if I do deep breathes through my mouth instead of breathing through my nose. I don't really know why. I have two concurrent theories: either it is because of a larger influx of oxygen or because the air I'm breathing hits hard the back of my throat and cools it off. Or maybe both? I have a deviated septum and very narrow nostrils. For unrelated reasons a couple of years ago the possibility of having surgery to widen them was put on the table, although I ended up not doing it (too many scary stories about that kind of surgeries..) I'm starting to think that a big trigger for my migraines may well be lack of oxygen or something of the like and that maybe that's the reason that mouth breathing helps me. On the other hand, I've also read a couple of years ago somewhere about a treatment that involved once a month have some sort of analgesic be administrated to the back of your throat. Maybe it's related? I don't know. And I've tried hard but can't find the link for that treatment.

I have been playing with a new idea lately. Part of our problem is that by some reason our eyes get strained. My experience is that our eyes work as muscles and they get strained (tired). You also regularly end up doing a lot of stuff in front of a monitor that doesn't really needs for your eyes to totally focus on the screen. On those cases, I try to focus my eyes like 10-20cm past the monitor, even if only for a couple of seconds. That seems to give my eyes' muscles some kind of temporary relieve, and helps not allowing the migraines to build up so fast as they would otherwise. I'm at this point still not totally sure of how much of a help this actually is, but I'm positive that it really helps. PS: As I was writing this post, I was actually with my eyes focused past my screen. I already got used to do this trick as much as possible, and always focusing at a different distance, to try to spread out the muscle usage. You'll notice that even when looking past the monitor, you can still generally understand what's written on the display. As you get used to doing this, you'll learn how to focus optimally -- resting your eyes and still being able to read what's on your display.

I am 36 and I don't have any health issues other than this screen induced headaches.

Harrison Also I can see that more and more people joining the ledstrain forums and are starting threads about topics some of us already discussed very intensely long time ago without any conclusion. I understand that. I would suggest redirecting them to the original thread. Even if unresolved, multiple threads on identical topics help no-one. Harrison I'm just trying to find connections why we can "see" things others can't see. I've began working on a "survey" (similar to those annoying "marketing" surveys), perhaps it will be usable as a method to identify correlations. Unfortunately I am back using my IPC2 which uses dithering (my computer with nvidia is currently in RMA..) so I'm spending much less time on the computer. Once that is remedied, I plan on finishing it up and maybe then we can glean some information. I plan to make statistics and input data (at least mostly) public so some care will be needed for anonymity, etc.

Slacor (my computer with nvidia is currently in RMA..) What happened to it? 😐

__528491__ Thanks for your detailed information. First of all I have to say that it's not easy for me to explain this medical stuff in english, however I'm pretty sure that you guys will know what I mean. I've two major problems in my head/face/... One is burxism and as a result problems with my temporomandibular joint and strainend facial muscles around it. Those symptoms get much better with a retainer I've got for 2 years know. However the strainend facial muscles did not relax totally. So one theory is that the strainend muscles influence the eye muscles in a certain way. One possible explanation is that during night, I can't breath with my nose and cause I'm breathing through the mouth at night the lower jaw gets into a non optimal position and strains his narrow muscles. The other major problem is the heavy eyestrain. I've also a deviated septum and very narrow nostrils and a theory of the Neuro-ophthalmologist is that the lacrimal glands are not ventilated in the right way. Moreover it is a fact that my lacrimal glands produce too less tear fluid. Eye drops and special eye therapies onle help a little bit. In my case it's also a discussion for years if I should do a nasal septum surgery or not. Otorhinolaryngologists are discordant if this surgery is really necessary, however I decided for me that I'll do it even if there is only a little chance to palliate my problems. Just think about, that even if you suppose that you are at full health, it is possible that you don't notice things like bruxism or the fact that you are a mouth breather. Also the chronical inflammation of my tonsils wasn't recognized by experts till now, however it is high time to get them out. Moreover the high inflammation markers in my body couldn't be good for the eyes. Of course I think that we have some kind ouf "faster eyes" and maybe our eye muscles can react faster to flicker, but don't ignore other factors in your body which can influence the eye system in a bad way - even if experts say different things to you.

So I figured I'd chime in here. Draw whatever conclusions you want but I'll try to elaborate on the onset of symptoms as well as severity. I'm 41. I'm overweight. I have in the past couple years made some concerted efforts to lose weight and hit my target goal. I practice kenpo karate and will never reach second black if I don't lose like another 25lbs. so there's that. When I am more fit, I notice my eye problems less. Although that isn't a universal truth - some screens hurt NO MATTER WHAT. It's possible that my tolerance is higher for discomfort in general when I'm more fit. Or, it's possible that fitness brings with it less time spent in front of screens. I have high cholesterol, but it goes down with weight loss so once I reach my goal weight the numbers should be good for that also. No other abnormal blood work. I have mild anxiety. Martial arts helps. So does getting enough sleep. I have a fast heartbeat. Have had it since I was a kid. It's hereditary/congenital. And harmless. I have TMJ and Bruxism. However, I've worn a nightguard for TMJ - and had TMJ flareups - for years. And never had a problem with any screen of any kind before 2012. Maybe the very tail end of 2011. But I was treated for TMJ long before that. How severe my TMJ is bothering me doesn't seem to correlate at all with my eye issues. I suffer from allergies. Both seasonal and specific. I'm sensitive to sulfur compounds (found in natural gas exhaust) as well as molds and grass and tree pollen. Again, there seems NO correlation between allergy symptoms and eye problems. I have tinnitus. Inflammatory, not nerve damage. It's related to the TMJ. It also seems to not correlate with eye issues. I consume caffeine (a couple big cups of coffee a day) and alcohol (a drink or two a couple nights a week) but neither in excess and neither seems to correlate. I don't smoke, consume drugs, or even take very many over-the-counter medicines (although I used to be a bit of a vitamin junkie, I gave that up once the science started coming in on it). I see a chiropractor for neck/spine alignment issues (years of computer work combined with a midlife fascination for getting my ass kicked in the dojo). How well my spine is doing also doesn't seem to correlate. I do go through swings. In late 2012 and very early 2013 it was the worst. I had nights where my eyes were so strained I simply COULD NOT SEE. Parts of 2015 and 2016 were much better. Late 2016 has seen a return to form. Nothing in my life - fitness, activity level, illness/injury - really seems to correlate. I do wear progressive glasses. Beginning in 2015 these were needed. My prescription is roughly -5/+1.5, or -4.75 if wearing standard lenses. No astigmatism. In 2001-2002 I became dreadfully ill from food poisoning. Long story short I "starved" for about 8-12 weeks. During this period my tinnitus/inflammation flared up badly, as well as my vitreous layer in my eyes separating. This is a normal thing that happens to everyone, but usually not at the age of 26. Usually more around 40-45. The illness might have been a trigger, or it might be coincidental. Either way I recovered fully, and had no visual issues (other than floaters in the vitreous layer) for a decade. If anyone sees anything in here they'd like clarification on, or that they think might help, let me know.

Gurm Well, bruxism is a connection and I also guess that you have high inflammation markers in your blood. Thanks for your detailled answer - every story and tale of woe will lead us to an conclusion. At present I think that just looking at technical specs brings us to nowhere. Too manifold are the technical reasons for the eyestrain.

Interesting. I also grind my teeth at night.

Harrison I very well might have high inflammation markers. They didn't pop on my last bloodwork, but that was a while ago. I can certainly bring it up next time I go for a physical.

your health

AgentX20

Agreed. I purchased a flicker free, low blue light and high refresh screen and had problems when connecting it to a known good PC/video card.

Jerry

train44 I think my main problem is caused by "moving objects" on screen. With the new BenQ GW2760HS monitor (supposed to be PWM and FRC free) connected to nvidia card in a Dell xps8910 desktop, I can look at a static screen without any problems. But if there are things moving on the screen and it does not have to move very fast, eg, scrolling up and down at a normal speed, switch screens with alt-tab as we usually do, when loading a webpage, even typing words like what I am doing right now, I will start to get headaches immediately. I have no problems watching things moving in real life although I do get motion sickness on bus if I am tired. I feel like the screen induced symptom gets worse if I don't have a good night of sleep. By the way, my testing results on BenQ monitor and nvidia card are mixed. I will report that when I can make better sense of what is happening.

One more piece of information: I wear a blublocker clip-on whenever I am in front a screen.

KM

Jerry Did you turn off BenQ's AMA option? Im not saying I'd get headaches but it definitely increases eye strain with my monitor.
And about NVIDIA cards: Here we once thought that NVIDIA=good, but it turned out that's not always true.

528491

Jerry Interesting you mentioning the moving thing. I could never play FPS such as UT or Quake because I would get nausea from all the movement. Playing games such as Age of Empires 2 was OK, though. It involved a lot less moving of the screen and it would happen in a lot more predictable ways.

I hate these new movies in 60fps, they make me dizzy like crazy.

ensete

Jerry That may point to refresh rate. Pixels being redrawn as objects move around the screen may be a trigger if they are not refreshed quickly.

train44

Jerry Like I said, it's PWM + response/image retention/etc i.e. motion. PWM is only half the equation.

I just picked up another Dell S2415H. 25% brightness and in a pitch black room my eyes feel as good as CCFL LCD monitor. Static text and motion. Intel graphics. You may want to look into the Dell S2715H if you need that size.

Jerry

KM I was just going to try to turn it off, but it is already set to off by default. My desktop has an integrated intel card, I am not sure if that can make a difference in any way. I ordered an HP desktop with AMD processor and nvidia card just to completely get rid of intel. The HP desktop will arrive by the end of this month.

Jerry

__528491__ I could stay up all night to play starcraft when I was a college student. There were no problems at all. Now I cannot even touch that game. I could not play counter strike though, the 3D thing give me problems.

Jerry

ensete make sense. Maybe I should try a high refresh rate monitor. Does the graphics card have anything to do with refresh rate, or a monitor is enough to have it under control? Thanks.

ensete

Jerry Both. The monitor needs to support the refresh rate and the video card needs to be able to push the pixels that fast

Jerry

ensete I did a bit research thru the internet. It seems that an important performance measure for a graphics card is frames per second (FPS). There is a lot discussion about it for playing video games. It seems to take a very good graphics card to get over 60 FPS. Most of the average video cards can only give less or much less than 30 FPS. And it is related to the screen resolution, the higher the resolution, the less FPS. My understanding is that the refresh rate of a monitor is capped by the FPS of the graphics card. If the card can only do 30 FPS, then the monitor with 60 hz refresh rate does not give you 60hz. It is actually only 30 hz. There are software to measure FPS in a game. Not sure if there is any way to find out the FPS when not playing a game?

Jerry

I played a bit more with MSI afterburner this weekend. After installing a counter-strike game, the MSI afterburner starts to work once I launch the game. It shows that my nvidia graphics card can render 75 frames per second (FPS) which matches the refresh rate of my BenQ monitor (75hz) under 1024 X 768 resolution. If I minimize the game window and let it run in the background, FPS drops down to 45-50. If I exit the game, then MSI burner can not pick up the performance of graphic card and shows 0 FPS. It seems that the graphics card does not render frames at a constant rate despite the fact that the refresh rate of a monitor is fixed at a constant. Launching the game somehow makes the graphics card work more effectively. I tried to actually play the game for a few minutes, did not feel uncomfortable.

I also tried the same thing on the integrated intel card (after disabling the nvidia card), almost instant headaches. MSI burner cannot pick up any FPS in the game. Intel graphics card is definitely one of the headache causes if it is not the only cause.

ensete

Jerry FPS will vary by how much work the video card has to do. Play a 3d game and look up at the sky, with no motion on the screen, and you can top 150 FPS. Start running around with other characters and weapons firing and death animations and you will drop below 30.

Have you checked that you have the manufacturer ICC profile installed under Windows color management?

Jerry

ensete what confuses me is that the FPS drops after I minimize the game window. I thought the FPS should increase because of the 3D game is more demanding than probably anything else in terms of graphics.

I checked the ICC profile. Not sure if it is install correctly. P
image icc-png Loading Image
icture attached here.

ensete

Jerry That is a picture of all the profiles installed on the system. Click the "Devices" tab next to it, select your monitor from the list of devices, and see what ICC profile is listed as default. If it is not one from the manufacturer, download it from the manufacturer and add it as default

what confuses me is that the FPS drops after I minimize the game window

With the game maximized, the video card is only working on the game, not windows. When it is minimized the game is likely still consuming some video card resources, AND it needs to draw Windows too. Just a hypothesis.

Jerry

ensete I just checked the default ICC profile for the monitor, it is from BenQ. Not sure if that is making a difference for me. I can test it later by switching it to Dell.

Regarding the FPS, I just find out that older versions of chrome has a built in FPS counter. So I installed an old version chrome and turned on the FPS counter, most time it shows less than 10 FPS. Very often it is less than 5 (see attached picture). For watching online video, it is 24-30 FPS. What is more confusing is that these numbers are very different than what MSI afterburner gives me. MSI afterburner shows a stable number ranging from 45-50 while chrome FPS counter shows <10 at the same time.
image chromefps-png Loading Image

ensete

I would suspect the Chrome Frame Rate counter is counting how many frames needs to get drawn. It's only drawing a new frame when something changes, hence low FPS when you are just looking at text and flat images

I can test it later by switching it to Dell.

Try switching it to the Windows default (I think it is sRG😎 and see if that matters

JTL

ensete I would suspect the Chrome Frame Rate counter is counting how many frames needs to get drawn. It's only drawing a new frame when something changes, hence low FPS when you are just looking at text and flat images

ensete Same thing with Windows aero display as well.

Jerry

JTL Not sure if I get this. So chrome FPS counter is counting the number of frames needed to generate chrome contents. What about the FPS from MSI afterburner? Both are on at the same time with the counter-strike game window minimized. Is the total number of frames rendered by the graphics card equal to the sum of FPS from chrome and MSI afterburner? Thanks.

JTL

Jerry Pretty much, but Chrome and Windows aero are only rendering frames when needed, while the game is rendering frames constantly.

Jerry

JTL I see. I noticed that in the game, the FPS is very stable ranging from 73-75. Even when I don't move in the game, the scene is still, nothing moves, the FPS is also between 73-75. The graphics card is constantly rendering frames even though it is not needed in the game. Not sure if there is a way to make the graphics render frames constantly in chrome or windows aero.

reaganry

Jerry at 30FPS, a game blacks out/erases the whole screen and redraws it 30x per second. web browsers/windows just change the colors of the individual pixels as needed.. plus pwm/temporal dithering

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