Usable Smartphones?

AGI

valex13 Interesting. Do you have an idea why the XR works and the others do not? Or is it just empirical evidence?
What symptoms do you develop with "bad" phones? Do you get instantaneous eyestrain and neck pain? How long do the symptoms last when you quit using the device? Thanks

lubo

valex13
Thnaks a lot for feedback. Have you tried to deactivate 90Hz mode and activate DC Dimming, makes it any better? It seems that arroung 50% brightness there is no PWM.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Analysis-DC-Dimming-vs-PWM-Can-you-dim-AMOLED-displays-without-the-flickering.423121.0.html

Gurm

So in the next week or so I'm moving the entire family to AT&T (they are having a stellar buy-one-get-one promo on Samsung phones now), which allows me to use GSM phones finally. Planning to hunt around for a OnePlus3. Do we have any idea whether I need to do OnePlus3 or if OnePlus3T is going to be the same? Has anyone used both?

AGI

Gurm Do we have any idea whether I need to do OnePlus3 or if OnePlus3T is going to be the same? Has anyone used both?

I had the same question. Looks like no one here has tried the 3T...

hpst

AGI If you are so inclined post here and ask https://forum.xda-developers.com/ (https://forum.xda-developers.com/oneplus-3t) but be prepared for the usual arrogance, topical diversions, and a really annoying forum design.

Gurm

hpst We can't ask XDA about the 3 vs 3T because none of them know about our vision problem.

Sunspark

valex13 It's interesting that you say the XR is ok for you, other folks complained about it. I suggest that if it works for you, you should use it and get used to iOS.

hpst

Sunspark

What worries me about that (aside from iPhones costing too much) is that its the only LCD panel device they make. Everything else is OLED and it wouldn't be surprising if all will be OLED soon. So if you get stuck in iOS and their OLED devices hurt, then you then have upgrade path. Hoping the Librem 5 isn't crap and whatever solution we may find can be useful there since its going to be running linux and not some proprietary mobile OS.

AGI

hpst that its the only LCD panel device they make.

Based on 20 minute testing, I found the XS smoother than the XR though. The XS was the first AMOLED I could look at without having consequences for 2-3 days.
The OnePlus 3 too is decent. I have been using it at night for 1-2 hours for the past 3-4 days, and I seem to be able to handle it with some CVD symptoms. Nothing like the disturbs I got from an S10 or a 6s.
I am confused. Does not it mount a Samsung display? Why can't I tolerate the S10 for a second then?
Also, within a few days I used three different OxygenOS versions, the first two based on Oreo (September 2017 and November 2018), and the last one being the up-to-date version based on Pie. I hate talking of feeling, would like to quantify, but all I can say is that the eyestrain feels stronger the more recent the OS version. I am trying to see if I can adjust to Pie. I am not super-happy, but the morning after I wake up only with a feeling of sand in the eyes and dryness, but no more than that. If I do not use the phone, the symptoms fade quite quickly. Hence the OS seems to play a big role. I had never tested three OS versions within days.

hpst Hoping the Librem 5

I did not know about this. I understand it should guarantee more privacy, but do you expect it to be more gentle on the eyes? Less dithering? Is it just a hope? Thanks!

hpst

AGI I did not know about this. I understand it should guarantee more privacy, but do you expect it to be more gentle on the eyes? Less dithering? Is it just a hope? Thanks!

Well software wise its supposed to be an open device running linux...to theoretically if we can find a dithering solution would should be more easily able to apply it there than to some closed blob in a commercial mobile OS. "If". But it could also be a moot point if they choose bad hardware. It's just a possibility at this point because it's not being built with our issue in mind and we won't know until they deliver.

GregAtkinson

I just bought a Moto E4 Plus. It's on Notebookcheck's list of phones that don't have PWM. I'm replacing my LG Rebel 4 that was never really great on my eyes (headaches, tinnitus, nausea) but now something (me or the phone) suddenly got worse. I'll post again here after I've played with it for a few weeks.

Has anyone in this forum considered creating a product catalog of all the products that are good or bad, and what tricks you had to use to get it to be good (e.g., always using it at full brightness)? I'm a software developer, so if there's interest, I could probably create something.

jasonpicard

GregAtkinson It's not that simple as everyone sees and processes things differently. What works for one person won't work for another. Getting a phone without PWM is only the start of the battle.
Refresh Rate
Blue Light
Dithering
Type Of Panel (OLED,IPS,TN)
Even having a custom Rom could have terrible effects on your eye health if it is not properly optimized to your phones hardware

AGI

jasonpicard Getting a phone without PWM is only the start of the battle.

That renders the idea 👍️

noigmn

I've been doing most of my internet use on a Boox e-ink tablet and noticed a difference from Android 6 when it upgraded.

I believe part of the Android issue is the way it refreshes whenever you do anything. It does a lot of flashing all over the screen as elements settle, and I'm sure it could be improved to update the display in a more uniform and sensible way.

On that topic, my phone is my last offending device and I think it is time to move on from Android. Is there anything that people have had 100% success with? Something that just does calls and messages like a seniors phone will do even.

randomboolean

noigmn I think there are no such thing with this madness... For example yotaphone 2 was quite ok for many ( for me too), but yet one person reported he cannot use the eink side - gives a lot of strain. Another example - dasung paperlike HD monitor. it's eink, but for me it is more unusable than the LCD. You can always try and return, so to not lose a lot of money. Also you can try out Light phone 2 (of course it is based on android 3 or 4?)

jasonpicard

https://bgr.com/2019/07/22/iphone-vs-gaming-phones-iphone-12-might-get-120hz-pro-motion-screen/ This could be a game changer for some on this forum in regards to looking for a new phone. Some people perform better with Apple products I personally don't use them but thought it was interesting. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/07/asus-rog-phone-ii-features-a-120hz-display-a-new-soc-and-a-giant-battery/ This is interesting as well a new android phone at a 120hz refresh rate. I bet next half of this year and next year there will be a lot of phones to choose from that are 120hz refresh rate OLED DC dimmed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BJU2drrtCM I believe it's this video where he shows that the Iphone refreshes in the opposite direction could be a big deal for certain people on this forum.

valex13

Today I had a chance to compare some devices with DC Dimming mode enabled. OnePlus 7 Pro, Xiaomi Mi9, Huawei P30 and Huawei P30Pro. Unfortunately all four phones - headache. No difference both WITH and WITHOUT DC Dimming. Reading Mode ON. Doesn't help. 90Hz Screen mode in One Plus doesn't help either.

Lauda89

valex13 I have tried only the Xiaomi MI9 and i had the same result. It's the first time that an OLED screen make me this effects.. i have an iphone X and i have zero problems.

Markus

valex13 Please try the HTC U11.

I bought it and it gave me a soft strain. After 2 weeks of usage it feels like my eyes tolerate the screen more and more. The time I can use it without symptoms get longer. Now I can use it without symptoms.

Device history (no strain): HTC Desire, HTC One S (AMOLED), HTC One X, HTC One, HTC M8, HTC 10, HTC U11 (LCD)
Device testet (strain, not tolerable): Samsung S7 (AMOLED), BQ X2 (LCD), Google Pixel XL (AMOLED), Google Pixel 2 (AMOLED), Google Pixel 2 XL (POLED), Huawei P10 (LCD), Google Pixel C (LCD), Samsung Tab 2 (AMOLED), iPhone X (AMOLED)

Gurm

I hate to keep saying this guys, but I really think that PWM is a red herring. It's been in use for decades. All old flat panels had it. It's seriously the LEAST important factor, IMHO, right now. There is no modern Android phone that works, irrespective of dimming mechanism, because the OS itself renders in a manner that produces headaches for us. The fact that Paranoid Android turns off whatever rendering bullshit is present in LineageOS tells me that it's software/drivers and NOT the hardware. I suspect this to be true in almost all cases.

There may be some folks on here for whom PWM is, in fact, the devil. But I strongly suspect OS rendering is far more important.

hpst

Gurm I hate to keep saying this guys, but I really think that PWM is a red herring.

I agree but then what is it? I had hopes for dithering but @Seagull's tests so far have not been encouraging. There is no clear correlation to his symptoms and some even opposite to what you would expect. @jasonpicard is hyper focused on motion blur and refresh rates but again those have been bad for decades with no problems for most of us, @martin is convinced its rooted in eye issues but enough people have ruled that out or done vision therapy with no success to show it not a major underlying cause. I reject the idea that "everyone is different" as if each person has a such a unique set of circumstances, yet is using the same sort of tech, and there are 1000 different causes for the similar symptoms we have. But...I also don't know what is next since dithering, the one major theory we hadn't been able to test, is looking like it's not any more related than PWM or the other boogeymen.

I've not seen a single person here solve their issues with any known and reproducable method. The best I have seen is "this thing I do or use is not AS bad as before but I still have symptoms. That smacks of placebo at best. We still don't know what is inciting this. We just have a lot of people assuming things and obsessing over detail that isn't bearing out.

jasonpicard

hpst My idea is that you can try as many LED and CCFL screens as you want but you never remove the variables of motion blur, true blacks, good spectrum unless you use OLED so it becomes hard to prove what the actual cause is. I don't think dithering can be the cause for everyone because Plasma TV's used it and CRT's use it and DLP. If you can tolerate any of those you eliminate dither because it is worse on those devices. Panel Type is another big thing that I believe would affect a lot of people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5G3uwCxiAk - Plasma dithering
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD7mNw5McBs CRT dithering
I just can't believe no one had a lot of issues with CRT except for the low 60 hertz refresh rate then LED monitors come out and so many people start to have problems. By so many I mean the small minority on this site and others🙂
CRT = True black, Perfect motion blur, Incredible spectrum, great viewing angles.

Maybe we will bridge the gap with viewing angles and speed and spectrum with the new LG Nano IPS 1 ms monitor. Or cross some peoples threshold to no pain.

I can tell you that the LG monitor I bought gives me no pain. I still use it all the time and it is the first true LED monitor that has given me no issues. CCFL has never worked for me. It's been months now even this past weekend on one day alone I gamed on it for well over 12 hours no issues. I use it everyday usually about an hour or 2 on work days but when I'm off I always use it. Even just thinking about some of the games I have played on it as they log the time I'm well over 120 hours of just game time on it no issues.

So we can rule out blue light with OLED.
We can rule out true blacks with OLED.
We can rule out PWM with most DC dimmed phones.
Motion blur is the hardest thing to deal with because OLED suffers the same sample and hold rules and regular LED.
I think the LG Nano IPS is the most different new tech that approaches OLED in terms of speed and color.
Next year we are supposed to get that Hisense TV that has two different LED layers that gives true black color and looks as good as OLED.

Who knows though as there are so many variables. Just some thoughts.

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