Usable Smartphones?

Sunspark

It's nonsense. Just jiggle the device while holding it. Even at arm's length you're going to see it.

JTL

Sunspark It's nonsense. Just jiggle the device while holding it. Even at arm's length you're going to see it.

Pretty much my thoughts too. Mitigating with "distance" is a red herring.

Hades7460 Please note that the author is a staff engineer at Samsung but a conflict of interest was not reported. What’s everyone’s thoughts on this?

Smoking gun that confirms Samsung's reasoning why they design the screen and "controller" the way they do? 😆

Seagull

Hades7460

I think this is all predicated on an assumption that a light sensor is an approximation to the human eye / visual system. A light sensor effectively has 1 pixel of resolution, so as the sensor moves further from the screen in an environment with ambient light it is going to measure a greater amount of that ambient light. However, our eyes have a large resolution, as my eye moves further from the flickering screen, I can still perceive it flickering, it just fills less of my field of view.

Honestly, this paper is a bit dumb. This could all be demonstrated with some basic maths, and completely misunderstands how eyes work!

zraw

After being unable to replace my 5 year old phone (Google Pixel 1) due to everything causing eye strain, I went to an optometrist.

My vision is pretty much perfect, but the doctor noted that the lipid part of my tears is a bit too low. This means that the water portion of the tears evaporate faster, leading to a kind of dry eye.

I don't really have symptoms except when looking at newer smartphone screens, so there may, or may not be a connection.

And even if there is a connection, there could certainly be a technology based change in these screens. But what if a slightly dry eye is the reason we are more sensitive to them?

degen

zraw

Some devices actually seem to cause ocular surface inflammation and resultant dry eyes (different from the optometrist “it’s because you blink less” explanation which leaves a lot to be desired). I have some vague idea about tight extraocular muscles impeding tear flow. Others have described that they feel they are “allergic” for lack of a better word to the light from some of these devices, as if it were directly caustic to the eyes (maybe some are). Another theory would have the brain reacting to the signal (flickering light) and triggering the autonomic nervous system to make changes in the eye causing redness, dryness etc.

I treat my ocular surface inflammation with Restasis. It improves my overall eye comfort. I wouldn’t say dry eyes is the cause, or that treating it is a solution to our problems. Personally I think it’s worth treating even if it isn’t the root cause, but others feels it’s a waste of time and/or money. Many people who have meibomoan gland dysfunction, the most common cause of the lipid layer deficiency you described, do not have any of our problems. Older adults especially seem to develop lipid layer deficiency as a consequence of aging or perhaps our modern way of living. In any case it seems quite common and is often an incidental finding upon visiting the optometrist for some other reason. At which point they will try to sell you many expensive treatments (then you really have to do your homework), some of questionable value.

Raja

I have tried Poco F3 and Mi 10T from XIaomi. However, both are unusable, even the 10T with LCD panel. LCD panel was indeed better for the eyes than AMOLED, but still no good in the end. 10T does have PWM even if is a LCD device, so that might have been the reason.

However, I had read good things from OnePlus Nord N10 5G, and indeed, it is good enough to use for even long sessions! So great to have a working modern smart phone. I tested it at a shop alongside of Moto G5 5G, and that device seemed to be another potential eye strain free device, however, I remember thinking that N10 screen looked even better for the eyes. But such brief experience at the shop is not worth much.

N10 is also cheap, got it for 200 euros, and is really value for money. If Moto G5 would have worked, you could buy Moto G100 that uses the same screen, and get a more premium phone for around 400 euros.

Alexmam

Raja

How do you know that MI 10T has flicker? I tested it with Radex Lupin pulse meter and it shows less than 1% with low brightness level same like for any IPS panel. Personally. I steer clear from any AMOLED screen, IPS is totally fine and I can use it with no issues.

Vividblu99

I've found a device that has, so far, been very gentle and friendly on my eye's without any eyestrain.

It's the Poco M3 Pro/redmi note 10 5g.

Both are the same device, just rebranded.

Activating the built in "reading mode/paper mode" and adjusting the paper mode to the highest setting, has worked absolute wonders. I can scroll, read, browse for hours without any noticeable eye strain at all.

They are however, both medicore in terms of specs/power. But regardless, I'm just glad I've found something that hasn't affect my eyes negatively.

The paper mode is a fantastic feature. It's subtle, but effective, and works fantastically with the PWM free LCD display.

I just wish it had a better processor/power, as it's barely powerful enough to play games smoothly.

But it's a trade off, to save my sight and strain.

degenerate

hi all, a quick update.

I tried the hisense a5 pro cc (colour e ink) and it was horrible to use; if the screen is static its ok but as soon as the screen refreshes/ moves (which is all the time when using it) it gives me terrible eye strain leading to headaches etc. this was with the backlight turned off!

I thought/ was hoping this phone would get me into the modern world more powerful cpu, ram, etc. but had to send it back.

zraw

Can anyone check the new Pixel 6 / 6 Pro in person? There's a very slim chance, but we can dream…

JTL

zraw Do stores even have it on display yet?

Regardless I think Notebookcheck should have one of their PWM tests within the next week or so.

zraw

JTL

Yes they are on display in several stores, reddit/twitter is full of posts about them. There's no official distribution in my country so I can't go and check.

It will have PWM like every other phone, but you can get rid of it with OLED Saver (minus the weaker 60/90/120Hz component that's there even at 100% brightness).

PWM doesn't bother me personally, there's something else in some screens (temporal dithering and what not)

degen

zraw

I agree about the “something else”, but it’s important to keep in mind that color editing overlays like OLED Saver introduce an additional layer of full screen dithering just like f.lux, Night light, etc. Therefore it’s difficult to draw any conclusions about the relative harmfulness of PWM and dithering based on its use. (Not saying you are, but others might be.)

degen

Maxx

Hi Maxx,

Coming back to this after all this time because you were more right than me. A lot of your posts rightly sound the alarm bell on the shifting definition of our shared issue with display flicker.

Manufacturer advertised “DC dimming” does not equal flicker-free. I think it’s important I come back to correct myself here because this distinction is important as more displays which flicker (temporal dithering, LCD inversion flicker, and OLED refresh flicker must all be considered as sources of display flicker) are being branded as “DC dimming”.

It’s very important that “DC dimming” does not become equated with flicker-free.

cizeta

Any of you ever heard of the Mudita Pure? Seems like a pretty good option if you don't need so many bells and whistles, or are like me and think smartphones are kind of evil, anyway.

ryans

Any luck with the Pixel 6? Did anyone try it?

Clokwork

I tried it for a moment in store. I'm willing to bet it's a modern Samsung panel as it gave me a similar feel to the iPhones, but not as bad. For me it's the feeling of my eyes not focusing on any one point.

logixoul

My 2 cents:

Nokia 6.1 (aka Nokia 6 2018): unusable for more than 3 seconds
Moto e4: Using it for 1 hour so far (with Twilight)! 🙂

9thfloorprod

Hi all, new here and just discovered this forum in the last few days after I purchased a Samsung Galaxy S21 and just…ow. The eyes, the headache, the nausea. It's like Clokwork just said above, it's like a feeling that my eyes aren't able to or can't focus on one point. The screen just feels I dunno, loud shouty and almost chaotic? It's difficult to describe.

I've used the same Oneplus 3 (wih an amoled panel) for the last 5 years and never ever had any of these issues at all, so I guess the amoled screen tech has changed in those 5 years? Using the Oneplus I'm able to focus, to concentrate on things and using it in comparison to the Samsung is almost like looking at a book. It's just a calm experience where the Samsung feels like being attacked.

Anyway, the point here is I am now in need of a new phone, the Oneplus is very old and creaky now and can't really cope too well. I did months of research and landed on the Samsung, which will have to be returned, but now it seems I have a new factor to consider which I have never had to think of before, having never experienced this issue in the past.

I am looking into a lot of the phones mentioned in this thread, but many have various drawbacks including just being far too big. Has anyone had any experience with the Asus Zenfone 8 at all? It has an amoled panel but Notebookcheck seems to suggest its PWM might be acceptable, and it also uses DC dimming which I understand can help. Any opinions helpful!

zraw

We are all in the same boat. I started looking for a new phone in june and I still use my old Google Pixel from 2016…

I checked a Zenfone 8 a while ago and it was like every other new phone, just as you described: it feels like being attacked. But feel free to try one, you might have a different experience.

I noticed that older phones are somewhat better, so a week ago a got a 2018 Pixel 3 (with an almost perfect battery), which is somewhat okay, but still bad in the long run.

I'm now contemplating buying one of those huge asian LCD phones (oppo, realme…), those might work.

I'm also thinking about paying a developer on XDA to try to write a kernel for one of the newer Pixels that gets rid of any color processing (eg. temporal dithering), but I'm not sure that's even possible.

Apart from these, I'm completely hopeless.

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