Usable Smartphones?

neca980

Does anyone have experience with iPhone 13? According to notebookcheck, it should have 610 Hz PMW?

engine_er

Has anyone tested the Nokia X30? Based on the notebookcheck.net review, the PWM curve is quite flat. It might be worth a try...

Leachim38

Dear all,

I am 42 years old, and I am suffering from problems with screens since I was a child. First it was a frequency thing…so with the old monitors, if the driver was not installed, it was hurting my eyes and if the driver was installed it was ok again. Then came the smart phones (for me around 2010)…and by accident I found two phones that did not cause eye strain. 2 Months ago my Redmi Note8T died (which was fine), so I ordered a new one…and it causes nausea! In 2 months time I have tested: Xiami Redmi note 11, Opp A58, Nokia G21, Apple SE2022, Samsung S21, Samsung Xcvover, Fairphone 4, Motorola G60, Apple Iphone 13, Samsung A13, Samsung A52 and MOtorola Edge 30.

My conclusion: most of the above phones do not give me any eye strain (anymore), but they make me nausea/dizzy (my energy is also drawn away) instantly. The PWN thing issue is in my opinion some theoretical invented idea…

As my Note Redmite 8t was an IPS LCD screen, I focussed on testing all kind of IPS LCd…all generate nausea. Now I will focus again on more OLED, but my latest one (Motorola edge 30 and Samsung A52) are Oled and they also make me nausea and again: no eye strain! The strange thing, is that every phone gives me a different kind of nausea (it are my own words). As my first Redmi Note8t was ok, and they did not change any hardware (which I could check on the internet), my latest thought is that it is definetely a software thing which is causing problems and not anymore a hardware thing….

Just my thoughts and experience!

Michael

Leachim38

And waht is dithering?

BloodyHell619

Leachim38 And waht is dithering?

https://help.teradici.com/s/article/1087

To my understanding, it is a method to make a cheap, shitty 6bit or 8bit panel produce more colors (10bit) by rapidly shifting pixels between two nearby colors, to produce the colors the panel can't produce.
So technically there are millions of pixels on your screen flickering between colors even on a static picture.

Vividblu99 I've tested the realme 7 5g, the realme 9 pro, oneplus nord ce 2 lite 5g, and the nokia G60, Realme x50 5g - they don't use PWM or temporal dithering.

This is really interesting, I am 100% sure that the Realme 7 5g I had was dithering. Aside from the massive eye burn and headaches, I could notice it doing it because low resolution content looked really smooth, which totally goes with the definition of dithering. (All of these are the exact things I experienced with my RTX 3070 ti which also does dithering.)
The first day with this phone was rather ok. Then I updated it on the second day, I think. Could it really be some kinda software level dithering ? That would really be horrible!

hayder1983 Are you sure the Huawei Mate 10 Lite is doing dihtering? I have the Mate 10 Pro and i dont have any problems with it.

Yep, I am pretty sure the lite is dithering. I suppose that's one of the reasons it was cheaper than the pro. Shitty panel with dithering.

Deepdeep How do you get 480 and 960 frames per second (the max I can do on my LG g8x is 240) - SLR/mobile/app? And do you use a microscope to detect dithering or just the camera?

@Vividblu99 I am also interested to know this. Ho can we check for dithering ourselves? Do we need some special equipment?

Vividblu99

BloodyHell619

Yes you may be right as I've also noticed some software updates can change the screen dynamics and alter the display.

But honestly, I've really found the color calibrator app useful in terms of lowering the contrast, and also increasing display size/text within the phone UI options.

I think my personal issue (apart from PWM/Dithering) is display/text sharpness, high contrast and high saturation. The moment I reduce these, and increase the text/display size, i find the screen comfortable (as long as it also doesn't have PWM/Dithering, and with a Matte Anti Glare/anti reflective Screen protector applied.

I watched the video footage you shared in your other thread. I didn't think that was dithering. It looked like the footage was capturing the red flickering LED lights on the billboard (not visible to the human eye, but can be picked up by external cameras)

Vividblu99

Deepdeep

It's V easy. A lot of smartphones can record up to 960 frames per second slo mo (Realme X series, G series, Samsung galaxy series, Huawei P30/P40 series Sony Xperia high end series etc), but personally, I use a Sony RX camera, and a (cheap) digital usb microscope camera purchased off amazon.

BloodyHell619

Vividblu99 I watched the video footage you shared in your other thread. I didn't think that was dithering. It looked like the footage was capturing the red flickering LED lights on the billboard (not visible to the human eye, but can be picked up by external cameras)

Yes, you were right, I actually opened up the video on my friend's phone and the same flickering was going on, that's why I removed that post of mine. Of course, the phone was still doing dithering, but it definitely wasn't that visibly obvious. I've come to realize that dithering really does its strain on low resolution videos, and I assume it's because there are big pixelated squares that might be dithering all at the same time. And also, as it's definition states, dithering does cause some blurriness/smoothness which is, by itself, eye straining. I can actually notice this. I don't know if people that don't get eyes strain from dithering can see this too. But any device that I have used that does dither, videos look smooth and smudgy on it.

Sadly in the past I have tried also sorts of temptings with sharpness/contrast/text size …, trying to make it bearable, but unfortunately, in my case, it doesn't help at all. Just like you, if the screen is dithering or has a low frequency PWM I just have to give the device up. But if it doesn't, I am okay with any set of screen settings.

Vividblu99 Yes you may be right as I've also noticed some software updates can change the screen dynamics and alter the display.

Seeing how far companies are pushing PWM/Dithering with not much of a concern, I do hope software dithering doesn't become a thing. Because that is going to be really hard to find and dodge.

Vividblu99

BloodyHell619

Dithering is awful. Just as bad as PWM.

What phones are you currently trying or have you recently tried? Have you found any that work best for you?

I've tested quite a few LCD based phones for PWM and dithering - and so far, a handful of Realme devices are coming out on top (all clear), as are the odd few Xiaomi/Poco phones, and a Oneplus nord lite, and a few older devices including Honor LCD based one's. Also the new Nokia G60.

I've been really lucky enough to have found a handful of devices which seem to work for me. The only downside is that they are vastly underpowered and underspecced, and often budget based devices. Therefore no scope for gaming or high quality cameras/user experience.

I can't seem to tolerate any type of Amoled/Oled screen at all, regardless of the PWM range or DC dimming tech. I literally get immediate eye strain, then eye fatigue, then a strange grating type feeling around my eyes and forehead. I then get headaches and start feeling overall body fatigue. Even signs of psychological disturbance arise such as low mood, anxiety/depression type thoughts & low libido. It's very unusual, but an awful feeling that's pretty much unbearable, and I've noticed it for years with amoled/oled tech.

For reference, here is a classic type of dithering example I've found on YouTube. This clip seems to perfectly capture a certain type of dithering (in my opinion). Not sure what type of camera was used to record it, but it looks horrible and shocking nonetheless. Have a look and tell me what you make of it:

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/gBuUEfOc_bA

BloodyHell619

Vividblu99 I can't seem to tolerate any type of Amoled/Oled screen at all, regardless of the PWM range or DC dimming tech. I literally get immediate eye strain, then eye fatigue, then a strange grating type feeling around my eyes and forehead. I then get headaches and start feeling overall body fatigue. Even signs of psychological disturbance arise such as low mood, anxiety/depression type thoughts & low libido. It's very unusual, but an awful feeling that's pretty much unbearable, and I've noticed it for years with amoled/oled tech.

I go through the exact same set of struggles and pains. And the depression is really a thing. Like I could hardly do anything.

Vividblu99 What phones are you currently trying or have you recently tried? Have you found any that work best for you?

I gave up, honestly. Just like you said, most of the options left are midrange phones.
The most high-end phone I could use was my Samsung Galaxy Note 5. I've given it for repair and am probably gonna stick to it until I go to a country where I could test stuff and give them back if I couldn't use them. After 8 year of using this phone, I just really can't give into buying a mid rang phone from a mid-range brand. I am also scared if they even would be truly eyestrainless.

If only I could find the PWM frequency of the Galaxy Note 5 somewhere, I would be able to make a decision. But I can't seem to find it anywhere. Notebookcheck.net doesn't have PWM frequency tests for phones this old.

logixoul

I tried moto g62 5g (recommended in this thread) for 2 weeks. In my case it wasnt any more tolerable than other phones. Btw i shot it with slomo microscope and it does have pixel flicker (TD or LCD inversion artefacts). I wanted to tell you guys the display panel's model name, but couldnt find an android app that provides this info.

Vividblu99

logixoul

Oh no! I'm sooo sorry.

I didn't have the handset long enough to test for temporal dithering. From the test I did though, I definitely didn't detect any PWM.

I remember there was also a "Flicker prevention" option in the display settings section within the UI. Which was unusual for an LCD panel.

I really liked the fluidity of the 120hz mode, and the display seemed very clear and concise when the "Natural" color mode was selected.

logixoul

Vividblu99 hi. Have you found any budget phone that has zero pwm and zero td? (In your own testing with a microscope and slo mo cam)? I am open for older models too.

Vividblu99

BloodyHell619

I checked on notebookcheck too regarding the note 5. That was released before notebookcheck started conducting PWM tests.

I feel for you though! But trust me, there must be an alternative device out there that will suit your needs. It's just a matter of shopping around and vigorously testing. But it's also very costly.

I guess that's one pro of testing mid range devices. The costs aren't usually too high compared to high end smartphones.

Vividblu99

BloodyHell619

The PWM range of the note 5 might also not be related to the ease of use you've experienced.

It might be to do with the actual amoled dislay type that is used. I doubt Samsung are or would still be manufacturing that at this present time.

All I know is, the more advanced the amoled/oled tech has become, the worse it feels in terms of comfortability.

Also DC dimming modes/fixed DC dimming, seems to have absolutely no affect on me - it doesn't make an ounce of difference. So it's a pretty worthless feature (incorporated/offered in a lot of new phones).

Vividblu99

Wow!! According to notebookcheck, the POCO M5s has an OLED display, without PWM detected?!?

Well this is a first!!!?

Check out their review here:

https://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-Xiaomi-Poco-M5s-Smartphone-Mittelklasse-Handy-mit-hellem-OLED-Display-ohne-PWM-Flackern.664488.0.html

Translate to read in English/desired language.

If this is accurate - then Xiaomi are definitely making progress!

RulerofNothing

Vividblu99: Interesting! Sadly that it has a slower processor than Snapdragon S695 and only security updates to mid 2024. But if there is a good offer maybe i will try it. Has someone already tested it?

qb74

Vividblu99 Seems like they're investing in proper OLED's now, 2023 seems to be a bright year! Can't wait for more higher refresh rate offerings! First OLED without PMW flicker!

Vividblu99

RulerofNothing

You're right. The Helio G95 is a pretty old, dated and underpowered processor. No 5g, and the phone also only comes with a 60hz screen.

But it does come with 33w fast charging, good battery life and good sound/headphone jack.

I haven't tested it, but hearing that it's an OLED display that is apparently PWM free, I'm now interested to see how I'd resonate with it.

DonWin

qb74

There is already one new OLED without pwm;

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Xiaomi-Poco-M5s-smartphone-review-Midrange-smartphone-with-bright-OLED-display-without-PWM-flickering.673764.0.html

Has anyone tried Samsung A23 5G? I'm using it now and it looks good to me.

parawizard

I've been able to use a LG G8X smart phone for over a year with minimal discomfort.

I picked up a Pixel 6a and whatever it's doing is so strong I was feeling almost dizzy and confused.

Both have PWM dimming. G8X has black streaking at lowest brightness setting as well.

I believe the Pixel 6a (QrapheneOS) is the worst display I own and the bests the M1 MBP14 in the ability to give me terrible headaches.

I have not yet been able to quantify why the Pixel 6a is so much worse. I've ordered HopooColor spectrum and flicker analyzer which may help and I have some microscopes.

dawidd6

DonWin I tried A23. Got headache unfortunately, dunno why, it's LCD after all.

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