Usable Smartphones?

Wayfarer86

BloodyHell619
the reason is not PWM, I think it's the aggressive backlighting of the screen and maybe the bad blue LEDs.
I do not know how it works, but after a whole day of use, my right eye began to see worse and a burst capillary appeared, in addition there is a feeling of compression in the temples, no screen settings remove these effects

riddle321

Dok123

PWM Ranking - Notebooks, Smartphones, and Tablets with PWM - NotebookCheck.net Tech

Check that page for the phones you're considering, and what their PWM value is. 🙂 0 is best, not worst. 1 would be worst, and the higher the better. For e.g. 150 or 200 is bad, above 250 is okay, 1000-2000 is good, above 2000 is best.

olgomar

Dok123

I tested an Oppo Find X5 in the shop today at around 3/4 brightness with the Opple Light Master 3 and it was one of the better displays with lower modulation in the intensity graph (similar to the graph of my S20 FE and LG v30).

I also found similar measurement showing lower modulation in the graph for the Oppo Reno 8 Pro and the Motorola Edge 30 (130-150) - I could not find the fusion model there.

I went in to the shop originally to test the Asus Zenfone 9 and Pixel 7 Pro, but found the Pixel 7 Pro has more modulation (160-220) in the graph, the Pixel 7 is worse again.

Unfortunately they did not have an Asus phone to test. Last time I looked at one, it did not seem to hurt my eyes (but only used it for a few minutes).

Update:

I went into another shop and saw the Motorola Edge 30 Fusion, I set the brightness down around 80% or so to test.

PWM of 100 Hz, modulation 10% (220 - 170 square)

iPhones

I tried to adjust the brightness down by 10-20%, then I would measure

14: PWM 480Hz, Modulation 12% (170-200 sawtooth)

14 Plus: PWM 480Hz, Modulation 4.4% (440-480 sin/square) Maybe the brightness was maxed here?

14 Plus: PWM 480Hz, Modulation 99% (17-330 jagged sawtooth bottom/sinusoid top - alternating lows)

14 Pro: PWM 480Hz, Modulation 30.7% (130-270 jagged sawtooth bottom/sinusoid top - alternating lows)

14 Pro Max: PWM 480Hz, Modulation28.3% (110-210 jagged sawtooth bottom/sinusoid top - alternating lows)

SE: Could not detect PWM (showed 50Hz but that is most likely the external lighting), Modulation 9% (120-150). Did not feel good to look at (maybe poor quality screen or polarisation/off-axis changes for each eye)

12: PWM 240Hz, Modulation 8.3% (100-120 sawtooth bottom/sinusoid top)

12: PWM 240Hz, Modulation 9.2% (30-40 sawtooth bottom/sinusoid top)

13 mini: PWM 480Hz, Modulation 9.2% (160-190 sinusoid)

13 mini: PWM 480Hz, Modulation11.3% (60-80 sawtooth)

13: PWM 480Hz, Modulation 11.8% (90-120 sawtooth)

Summary

iPhone 13/13 mini and 14/14 plus seem to have the lowest modulation at the highest frequency.

iPhone 12 has lowest modulation overall but its at half the frequency of the 13/14

iPhone 13 seemed to introduce higher frequency PWM of 480Hz, with a fairly low modulation at higher brightness levels.

iPhone 14 Pro/ProMagnum changed the PWM behavior with higher modulation and a more aggressive waveform that alternates between two lower intensity levels. 14 and 14 Plus did not seem to do this (most likely using the same approach as in the 13/13mini).

iPhone 12 has low modulation but also lower frequency 240Hz PWM. It has the lowest ripple in the graph visually though (apart from the SE).

iPhone SE does not appear to use OLED, but has a screen that is not appealing or comfortable to me.

Reference:

Seeing as the S20 FE 5G has been working for me for the last 2+ years, and the LG v30 for 2-3 before that - I thought I should add their measurements:

S20FE: PWM 120Hz, Modulation 9.5% (90-110 square/sawtooth)

S20FE: PWM 120Hz, Modulation 20% (110-190 square/sawtooth)

LG v30+: PWM 60Hz, Modulation 3.4% (300-310 square/sawtooth)

LG v30+: PWM 60Hz, Modulation 12.5% (60-80 square/sawtooth)

What seems to work for my eyes is how the switching to low intensity happens very fast and only for a small proportion (5-10%) of each switching period, while the higher intensity is maintained evenly for the majority.

The other thing that may help is the above 2 phones match the PWM to the refresh rate which may prevent aliasing flicker as well. Anyhow Just my thoughts on that.

Dok123

olgomar

Thank you! So both Oppo find X5 and Moto 30 fusion are a good choice?

Is Pixel 6 so bad despite its pwm is above 360 Hz?

olgomar

Dok123

Well, they seemed to modulate the intensity the least, so probably the "best of a bad bunch" for me personally - I have not used any of them for long enough to see if they would work for me long term but for me if I had to use - the Find X5 and Edge 30 seem the "least bad".

None of them exhibit the waveform of the S20 FE or LG v30+ where they are almost DC like for the majority of the switching cycle with very fast low modulation down/up transition for around 5% ot the cycle (brightness above 40%)

Out of all the phones I checked, the Edge 30 and Find X5 both had intensity waveforms closest to what has been working for me. The Edge 30 fusion was a more regular waveform and more different to what I am used to.

Best of luck.

logixoul

Vividblu99 Sorry I never replied until now. I've been massively eyestrained - that's the reason. I'm typing using an eink screen now and so I still can't view your video properly. Thanks for posting it though. If I ever am able to view it, I'll get back to you.

Vividblu99

logixoul

So sorry to hear. Hope the strain settles soon 🙏

What eink device are you using?

BloodyHell619

Vividblu99 ad news.

I recently purchased a new digital microscope from Amazon (Andonstar) and I've been testing all my LCD based smartphones over the past 2 days.

Every device I've tested is displaying either Temporal Dithering or some type of moving inversion/artifacts - no device has been 100% stable.

As bad a news, that is, it is also good in a sense, because at least we now know that the same phone is not built with that much of a different screen. No wonder the Realme 7 was giving me such horrible eyestrain. I was sure that thing was dithering or something like that. I think Realme is really off the table now. I even emailed them that the phone was dithering and asked if there was a way to turn it off, but got no reply at all.

Rui I want to try Xiaomi 12T Pro with 1920 Hz (I had no problems with Xiaomi 11T Pro).

Weird. Notebookcheck says the 12T Pro flickers at 120Hz, although it also says that "the amplitude curve is very uniform across the entire brightness spectrum and constant at 120 Hz - similar to a DC dimming mode ex-factory"

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Xiaomi-12T-Pro-5G-review-Smartphone-with-200-MP-and-Snapdragon-8-Gen1-at-an-attractive-price.670456.0.html

I've been trying to see if I could adapt to my Galaxy Note 5 again. I was able to play games with it for like 4 days trying to take my eyes off the screen as much as I could, but after the fourth day I was literally seeing moving horizontal lines before me when I took my eyes off the screen for like an hour. I had never experienced that. That was definitely PWM.

I found an old video where my Note 5 was filmed in it, and It was flickering pretty bad even before the repair, it's driving me nuts that this phone is now giving me this much strain. What could have possibly changed? The strain is definitely, at least for sure, partly, PWM related.

I am really getting tempted to take one last shot for a phone and get the POCO X4 GT.

@Vividblu99 have you stumbled across anything even cheaper with no dithering and no pwm or a very high frequency pwm yet? Or has anyone else?

Also, another weird question. How old are you guys? Have your symptoms ever decreased or increased with age?

Vividblu99

BloodyHell619

Touch wood (🤞🤞🤞🤞) - so far I've established that I don't think I'm reacting negatively to TD/LCD artifacts - but I react 100% to any form of PWM, and any screen that has high sharp contrasts.

My personal crux is PWM. I can't tolerate it no matter what. I've mentioned some devices in the past that are 100% PWM free, and they've worked well for me personally (with a few tweaks/customizations).

Having said that, from my testing, I haven't found a single device that doesn't have these unusual LCD inversion/artifacts - though it's not likely to be TD.

neca980

dissociativity

I can agree on Pocophone X3 Pro, using more then one year w/o problems. Only downside of the phone is really cheap camera.

Leachim38

Hello Everybody, my personnel opinion/conclusion today is that there is no plausible explanation for the eyestrain/headache for the new models smartphones. I am almost thinking it could be the "blue light"(the popular term used by the manufacturers themselves)….

But did anybody do some trials with screencovers? My girlfriend has an older Samsung A40 with a screen protection, and it easier for me to use than my own A40 (which has no screenprotection). For sure the screenprotector has influence on the "screen light/output", as I learned that sunlight in water breaks into a certain angle (probably also glass…). I do not have any problems with screens in (electrical) cars for example, and I think the glass on these screens is most of the time much more thicker than in smartphones.

I dont hear anybody complaining about other types of screens than our smartphones and televisions, right?

Let me know, if you have any thoughts about this.

Greetz,

Michael

BloodyHell619

Rui

Okay this whole new Xiaomi 12 line up is tempting me. The 12 lite the 12t and the 12t pro.

All three have been tested by Notebookcheck showing no temporal dithering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi1SM-jdtgs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uM0TYrR_ig

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uMSFxWIFVg

(It's weird, in the test of the 12t and 12t pro I am seeing some flickering. I wonder what that is.)

The 12 lite in particular has caught my eye. The official website states it has, 1920hz PWM frequency.

This is what notebook check has to say about the 12 lite:

"Xiaomi uses a particularly eye-friendly DC dimming process for the display, with a frequency of 1,920 Hz. Our oscilloscope only detected a bit of flickering in the refresh rate, with a constant 120 Hz over the entire brightness spectrum. We were also not able to observe any temporal dithering, which we measured by looking at the display with a microscope and using a 240 FPS slow-motion video (dark grey and at full brightness)."

Has anyone had any of these phones? What's your thought about a PWM frequency this low but with DC dimming?

Vividblu99

BloodyHell619

I've played around with an Honor 50 and Honor 70. The Honor 70 also claims to use the same PWM frequency rate (1920) of the new Xiaomi/Poco amoled devices and the upcoming devices (poco x5 pro).

Unfortunately I couldn't tolerate either. It made no difference and felt like any other amoled/oled device I've used in the past - (immediate strain/tension/fatigue).

On account of this - and as I've mentioned before in a previous post - I think it's just a marketing gimmick. The screen is still flickering, only at a slightly increased rate.

I can't even tolerate the very high frequency of LCD devices that usePWM (such as the Moto G200 which flickers at 89290).

Therefore personally - until an amoled/oled is verified/certified as 100% flicker free - I'll no doubt react 😩😩

Vividblu99

BloodyHell619

I'm based in the UK, and we still have a few high street retailers (Three, O2, Vodafone) that have display models that can be tested before purchase.

The retailer "Three" have a lot of Xiaomi/Samsung/Honor devices in store - and from my observation of these amoled devices - I react very negatively, even during a 10 minute play around. This includes the Xiaomi 12t, Xiaomi 12t pro & 12 lite.

logixoul

Vividblu99 Thanks! Boox Mira.

I'm writing about it here:

https://ledstrain.org/d/1246-onyx-displays/22

https://ledstrain.org/d/1246-onyx-displays/27

BloodyHell619

Vividblu99 This person on YouTube has mentioned they became PWM sensitive over time (2 years). It wasn't something that was initially instant.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AhGhYIR29vw

Maybe this could also have happened to you. Developing sensitivity over time?

That's really horrid if it's true. And that guy has contact glasses, I mean if these people are straining from these phones those of us with perfect vision are really busted.

Vividblu99 My friend suggested keeping the brightness at 100%, and using an overlay to darken the screen. But that would've just take a hit on the battery life. I chose not to purchase it in the end.

There's something about this that is blowing my mind, and I don't know if you have an explanation for this. I tried using Oledsaver to apply a tint on the screen and set my brightness to 100%, of course the Note 5, just like all other god-damn Samsung phones, still flickers at 100%, but the lines that go across the screen seem much thinner. But what's mind blowing to me is that with Oledsaver and at 100% the phone is actually like a 100 times more straining to my eyes. Like, my eyes literally start frying up. How come lower brightness is less straining? :/

Vividblu99 Having said that, from my testing, I haven't found a single device that doesn't have these unusual LCD inversion/artifacts - though it's not likely to be TD.

My dad bought my mom a Galaxy Tab s6 lite the other day. Yesterday I was getting it prepared for my mom, and you might not believe this but since this is a big screen with a low pixel density, if I look closely, those unusual artefacts that you are speaking of, I could swear I can see them! Like the screen is literally jittering like that static noise you see on old TVs when they don't have a signal.

And of course I couldn't stand the screen. My eyes still feel dull 2 days after using it.

What really bothers me about screens that are using these artefacts or dithering or whatever is how disgusting they look. They're smudgy and there's a trail following everything when you scroll. I swear, I don't even wanna mess up my eyes for looking at these disgusting screens.

Vividblu99 Yes you're right. Awareness to the issue is increasing incrementally - but it's still not enough in my opinion!!

Yeah you're right. Honestly, I have given up on even finding a phone that works or a future phone that works. The only good thing this has is that at least people can't call us crazy. I'm literally being called crazy by everyone around me since this crap started to happen. And what's ludicrous, is that all my friends and the people that mock me and are using all these horrid screens with no problem have a weak eyesight and are wearing contact glasses.

Prices are rocketing through the roof here, and I still can't dare to go for any phone. 🙁

Vividblu99 I came across a new Honor model - Honor x8a, in a store yesterday.

It's a budget device. I played around with it - the screen seemed very comfortable.

Sadly only the Honor x8 is available here 🙁 I wonder how different it is from the x8a. Any chance of testing that too?

Vividblu99 Having said that, from my testing, I haven't found a single device that doesn't have these unusual LCD inversion/artifacts - though it's not likely to be TD.

Have you gotten to test the Poco x4 GT and the Samsung a13 that someone else mentioned here?

@Vividblu99 By the way, what phone are you currently using yourself as your main?

hoss11-1

Hello. Finally, after trying five mobile phones, I found a mobile phone that is compatible with my eyes and does not give me a headache with light above 50%. a13 samsung. Before this, I had tried the following phones and they all gave me headaches: m62 samsung 11t poco x3 gt poco x4 gt poco m4 pro 5g I suggest you try it. a13 samsung

BloodyHell619

hoss11-1 Hello. Finally, after trying five mobile phones, I found a mobile phone that is compatible with my eyes and does not give me a headache with light above 50%. a13 samsung. Before this, I had tried the following phones and they all gave me headaches: m62 samsung 11t poco x3 gt poco x4 gt poco m4 pro 5g I suggest you try it. a13 samsung

Which version is your a13. It seems pretty affordable. Did you get the one with the Exynos CPU or the one with the Mediatek CPU? And is it 4g or 5g?

I might give it a try. Since you say the x4 GT was even straining you, which was my last resort. My window for taking risks is very limited at this point.

reaganry

hoss11-1 a13 didnt work for me at all.

Dok123

Hi, has anyone tried OPPO FIND X3 Neo?

olgomar

I was finally able to try out and test an Asus Zenfone 9 today.

Out of the box, the display was comfortable for me above 75%. I think DC Dimming happens automatically from 75-100%.

Below 75% there is 480Hz PWM with 99% modulation, however there is a setting to fix this-

In the settings, you can enable "Low Brightness DC Dimming", (I also needed to select 60Hz refresh for this option to be available) - I tested this down to low brightness and appeared comfortable viewing the screen for the time I was testing.

This seems very similar in the shape of the waveform to the S20FE and the LG v30 that has served me well, but even better that it is available at all brightness levels.

wlmsn

I'm able to use Pixel 4a (and Pixel 3 before that) with no issues. According to Notebookcheck they both use PWM so I assume that's not my issue. To be fair I do leave it at a pretty high brightness so maybe PWM doesn't come in to play there?

JTL

wlmsn To be fair I do leave it at a pretty high brightness so maybe PWM doesn't come in to play there?

Might impact the amplitude of flicker, but other than that I think the Pixel devices are unfortunately rather unforgiving for PWM flicker.

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