Usable Smartphones?

engine_er

Vividblu99 When the motorola G200 came out, I tested it, but probably I was unlucky with the display and it was unusable for me - the headache came right away.

I also tried the Poco X4 GT, but like the rest of the Xiaomis with an IPS display, it was very uncomfortable to use.

As mentioned here, temporal dithering is a bigger problem than PWM. I'm still inclined to try some OLED with a straight PWM waveform, but before that I need to be sure that it will be a true 10-bit panel and no FRC will be used. Dovtedy sa budem musieť uspokojiť so súčasným Realme 7 5G, prípadne s Realme 9 Pro.

Vividblu99

engine_er Same. The G200 display is awful. Instant eye strain.

Realme 7 5g & Realme 9 Pro are good choices 👍

Tobiyas

engine_er I have been looking into this migraine/ eyestrain problem for over half a decade now. I noticed that Gamma is also a cause of headache, besides PWM/ any other flickering. Motorola G200 has a gamma of 1.94(based on report by notebookcheck.net) and this means brighter areas will become much brighter while darker areas will become much more dimmer. An ideal gamma to me is 2.2. Any value lower would be too bright for me.

Color temperature(CCT) is what caused our eyestrain. a perfect pure white light is 6500Kelvins. Notebookcheck reports G200 with 7100K. That's rather bluish and it emits lots of blue light.

I use iphone 7 Plus with a gamma of 2.2 and CCT of 6667K. No PWM as well. I could use it continuously for 12 hours straight without any eyestrain or headache. I have another iphone 8 Plus lying around but I dont use it. Its 6800k color temperature is rather purplish and it causes me mild eyestrain just after 10 minutes of use.

Poco X4 GT may have a gamma of 2.25 and CCT of 6500k, but has a PWM of 51K. I guess 51K may still cause discomfort for you then. For me, 21,000 hz pwm gave me both headache and eyestrain. A 200 hz gave me eyesore (with dry eyes) and a severe migraine with aura, within minutes. The first high PWM that does not give me discomfort is one with over 110K hz.

In summary based on my findings (for very sensitive individuals)

- below 2.2 value Gamma > headache (because content will look very bright)
- above 6500Kelvins/6600Kelvins Color temperature > eyestrain (because of the bluish light emitted)
- low flickering > headache and eyestrain (everyone's threehold for low is different)

Vividblu99

Tobiyas I believe it's a subjective issue & based on personal preference & comfortability. For example, I found the Realme 8 5G very comfortable (with a matte screen protector), and that has a very high color temperature (7900k+) and a gamma of less than 2.2. But it's also a low contrast (823 - Ref: NBCHECK) display and PWM free.

I suspected my own personal issue was with high contrast LCD's, but I've also found the realme 9 pro comfortable, and that has a contrast ratio of 1200+, and a gamma of less than 2.2 & CCT of 8000+.

The oppo A74 5G, using it at a brightness of above 20%, was also comfortable. That has a gamma of 2.26, CCT of 6700, & a contrast ratio of 1600+. Same with the Redmi note 9T: CCT 6525, Gamma 2.24 & contrast 1362.

The Nord CE 2 Lite 5G has a color temperature of 8540K! A gamma of 2.1 & a contrast of 1500. I also found this comfortable to use.

There is a lot more to this, and it seems to be subjective & not a one size fits all.

Tobiyas

Vividblu99 Yea I think you are on to something. As sometimes even when I use a phone that seem to have checked all the boxes I have listed above (for a comfortable experience), I still felt uncomfortable with only limited minutes of usage. I think there are other factors we have yet to identify that may be causing strain/ discomfort. I guess you are right about the gamma and the color temperature thing. Indeed it appears that it affects people differently.

Gosh, I am currently looking at three devices at the moment. It's either the Huawei Nova 9SE(non 5g edition. The 5g edition seems to be using a different LCD panel IMO), Iqoo Z7(China edition - LCD) and the moto G73. I have really high hopes for the G73 because it looks to be my perfect upgrade from the iphone 7 plus. However, as I spent most of my time reading on my smartphone,it will be a concern for me if there is discomfort in readability!

I know some website reports device screen as PWM free but when I bought the device and return back home I immediate got a dry eye from using it. I later read that the editor clarified that occasionally, they did not disclose their findings with lower brightness flickering because they felt the flickering is high enough that it will not bother most people anymore (probably over 2000~3000hz). Thus I'll wait for NBcheck report, and then see it in person again.

Hmm it's the first I have read about the possibility of protective glass causing eye strain. I do have read quite some time ago — about the gap between the touch screen glass panel and internal display. If the lcd display is not designed properly, the gap between will be wide till light will bounce around and reflect against both surface inside, resulting in glare when we see the display.

I'm still on the lookout to replace my smartphone. I was waiting for the rumored iphone se plus for years and apparently based on lastest report it was cancelled. Gone were the days where I never had to be constantly concerned about eye strains/ headaches.

Vividblu99

Although the moto G73, according to some sources, is PWM free, when I used the device, I found it difficult to focus on the display text. There was a shifting type of sensation, almost like instability, which made it hard for me to focus & read. I've noticed this with quite a few moto displays in the past, but not all.

Some past Honor/Huawei LCD devices have felt very stable, like the display was static & fixed, which made them very comfortable to use to read text. I've noticed the same with a lot of Realme LCD devices too.

I remember reading through some Russian based forums a while ago using google translate, and some referenced the type of protection glass used on handsets often contributing to a negative effect causing LCD strain (Glorilla/panda/dragontail glass etc). Possibly due to the reflectivity. Not all manufacturers disclose the type of glass that is used, if any at all, though the higher end models tend to list this info in their specifications. The G73 is apparently using Panda Glass.

Vividblu99

Tobiyas

I don't know what causes the variations between LCD devices, and why some are more comfortable than others. Even after all these years, I haven't been able to pinpoint an exact reason or a cause.

Fortunately, I have found a handful of devices that work best for me, so I've been lucky. Although I've developed an unhealthy (& expensive) OCD type habit/addiction with wanting/testing newer LCD devices that hit the market.

With that said, I'd suggest that you try the G73, as you may have a different experience and you might find it compatible & comfortable. Just ensure that the retailers returns policy is thoroughly reviewed beforehand if you decide to return it, as I've noticed a restriction on the issuance of refunds/exchanges - unless the product is faulty.

Vividblu99

Tobiyas You're also right regarding reviewers. Not all are accurate concerning PWM. Even notebookcheck.

I've noticed a lot of Russian reviewers on YouTube and generally online, take the PWM (shimmering) issue very very seriously. This is a blessing, as they tend to thoroughly scrutinize & test a device during their reviews - making them more of a reliable source.

Leachim38

Vividblu99

I have exactly the same, a split second causes pain (in the right side of my head) and nausea. I cannot concentrate anymore, my memory isnt working anymore and my energy drains away from my body.

As I look at this forum, I see no clear evidence for PWM; it is just a term "which should be the problem".

I think it is much more plausible to say that the manufacturers have found a way to cut costing on chips, and alter the software without competiting on high costing chips. The competition is about who has the must "in your face" screen, which one is really must "appealing". The chips are doing something strange to the projection of the screen, being powered by software - and PWM is not the problem. In my opinion. My old Samsung s5 which worked ok, was one big PWM machine. All members here have the same experience with older phones.

engineer

I noticed that the Oneplus Nord 3 CE Lite, which is actually the Realme 10 Pro, should be available in April in EU e-shops. Even though, I already bought the Realme 9 Pro, I have high hopes for it this could be a usable and affordable phone for us sensitive users. If anyone has experience, please, let them write.

Vividblu99

engineer Yes, it's up for presale on the oneplus UK website too! This is great news, as I was worried that the oppo group might suspend sales within the EU due to all the online rumors/legal patent issues.

The Nord CE 3 Lite seems to be a rebranded Realme 10 Pro, with minor slight differences. The Nord has faster charging speeds!

How are you getting on with the Realme 9 Pro?

engine_er

Vividblu99 Compared Realme 9 PRO to the Realme 7 5G, the display is not so comfortable, or I feel less pressure in my head - probably because the display supports a wide gamut I tested with applicationv Display tester. Maybe I'll end up replacing the Realme 9 Pro with the Oneplus Nord 3 CE Lite, even though the first reviews say that the display can't use 120 Hz mode, which is disappointing for me.

ban

But what's wrong with iphone 11? Does it give strain because dithering? I see on other forum that many users that can't use oled iphones can use without issues the 11.

Tobiyas

ban I don't know about others but I start to have problems with some of Apple's LCD devices even from the iPhone 8 Plus. I turned off True tone display and that helped me to extend usage from a few minutes to an hour -but not beyond that where I start to feel headache and eyestrain. Iphone XR was bad for me the moment I picked it up.

While Iphone 11 was an improvement over XR for me, I still felt that the screen is causing me eyestrain with just mere minutes of usage. I can't identify what's wrong either. I'm not sure whether dithering is at work here either. The strange thing is also that I don't have much of a problem with older iPad models (and that includes the first gen iPad Pro 12.9). However with newer release beginning the 11 inch ipad pro, I start to have problems. Hence I thought of giving the rumored SE Plus a last chance, before I look elsewhere out from Apple handheld devices.

There are individuals that have complained about problems with iphone 11 too. It's not really as one-sided as it seems.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/has-anybody-else-been-having-headaches-and-or-nausea-with-iphone-11.2209358/page-6

Vividblu99

engine_er There won't be much performance difference between the 9 pro & the CE 3 Lite, as they are almost identical specs wise, apart from the camera/charging speed/speakers.

Are you using a matte screen protector on the 9 pro?

Edit: Just seen a russian review of the CE 3 Lite. The bezels are slightly thicker compared to the realme 10 pro, so it has a reduced screen to body ratio. But apart from that, it looks promising. Also I'm sure the 120hz issue will be resolved via a software update.

Tobiyas

According to the below article,flickering between 80 to 2000 Hz causes Stroboscopic effect while up to 2500 Hz we are able to detect Phantom Array effect (ghost effect).
source: https://alamembers.com/Portals/1/9_0%20Naomi%20Miller-Flicker.pdf

Another study found that stroboscopic flicker can still be detectable up to 3000 hz. Another term for stroboscopic flicker is invisible flicker. (in another thread I saw on ledstrain, I believe when manufacturers claimed that their display is flicker free it is referring that their flicker is above 2500 or 3000 hz. It is not exactly flicker free. TUV rheinland certified flicker-free are also implying this too.
source: https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/light-flicker-health

Lastly, according to another study I read, for individuals sensitive to flickering, they are affected even at 11000 hz.

Not including sensitive individuals, it is clear that none of the oled phone is safe for long hours of use. I really wish to buy into the advertised "high flickering eye protection" phones like Honor Magic 5 Pro, P60 Pro, or Oppo Find X6. However, their flickering hertz are simply just way too low. I wish manufacturers will finally move on to using Mini-Led displays as mainstream.

Sometimes in challenging lighting conditions, I just want to use a smartphone to snap a really good picture and toss it back to my backpocket. The current camera flagship phones are really attractive, capable of capturing really far subject with minimal loss in quality. But the problem is that they all come with oled screen and that I can't even look at it for a split second without my migraine triggering.

I don't mind even with getting a PWM phone with above 30,000 hz pwm (I did tried 21,000hz and it still gave me mild headache) as a good travel pocket camera. It seems as of now — to my knowledge, appears to be difficult.

Vividblu99

Tobiyas I know it's not ideal, but would you ever consider using a separate high quality phone for camera/picture use, and using a different (LCD) phone for consuming online content/media?

Tobiyas

Vividblu99 Yup! This is exactly what I have in mind. As I know it is not realistic to expect a mid-range/ upper midrange LCD phone to fulfills both use cases.

Additionally, would you be fine sharing the russian website source?

As I just found that the recent test for PWM from NBCheck appears to have poor validity.

Occasionally, NBCheck would use a 2ms interval to measure PWM (mate 50 pro and xiaomi 13 pro test for instance) and their findings would show a consistent flat wavelength. This finding is kind of ridiculous IMO as a 2ms interval is capable of measuring a consistent pulsing 500 hertz flicker as a flat wavelenth. Assuming their intention is to test for a flat non-pulsing wavelength with mate 50 pro and xiaomi 13 pro at 1440hz and 1920hz respectively, they should be using a faster speed with 0.7ms (or 700µs) and 0.5ms (or 500µs).

I found that it may seems that they have changed the measurement of the PWM test to make certain recent iPhone model look for more attractive for individuals with less sensitive to PWM.

Disappointing, really.

Vividblu99

I've been using an Honor 70 lite since yesterday. The display is drab, dark, with low color reproduction & pretty lifeless. 720p, with 269ppi.

I've used x3 different matte screen protectors, and also used the phone for an hour, without one. The first 2 protectors were no good, causing too much noise and blurring images/text. (Due to the displays already low ppi).

Using the phone without one was not as bad as i was expecting. The TFT screen was very reflective, but was still ok. In the end I applied a third matte protector from a different brand. (More smooth but not as effective as previous 2 brands). Also not a perfect fit/size, as I buy generic 6.5inch ones in bulk.

Anyhow, I've been using the device and I've read a few chapters of an ebook, scrolled some online articles and watched 2 youtube videos.

Although the display is 😐, I've actually found it VERY comfortable....so far.

The display feels very natural, comfortable & easy and... I'm impressed.

Performance is underwhelming. Occasional stutter and lag. Screen touch response is not very fast, causing some errors when typing messages & posts like this one. But it's still usable nonetheless.

For the price, the device is OK. No charger or TPU case was included in the box 😑.

Benchmark results (Geekbench Multi:1807, Antutu: 321605, Storage: 544MB/482MB Read/Write) are all much MUCH higher than the more expensive Honor x8a - although the x8a does look better & probably has a better camera (which I have no interest in testing as I'm not a photo/video type person).