8Bit+2bitFRC laptop screen settings

dzonibg

Hi guys,

I've got a laptop that's shown to be 10bit in Windows/Intel Command Center. I know about the issue with dithering and I'm sensitive to it A LOT. I've used the laptop for 2 months and got major vision issues, which I connected to using the laptop, since after not using it for a month (got it on black friday) my vision has improved. I used to see a bunch of sparkling dots in my vision, and my eyes are okay, got checked for retinal degeneration, etc… anyway, symptoms are mostly gone now, though as a programmer, I encounter such issues quite often, just not as extreme.

Now, the laptop I got is the IdeaPad 5 Pro. It has a 120Hz 1440p 16" screen with 10 bits. Checked out recently about FRC since I couldn't find out what could be the problem with it (no PWM) and seems like dithering is causing the issues. It's got a 12th gen Intel i5 with Iris graphics. I've got the new Intel Command Center app.

Now, I've got the bpc setting in the panel. I can choose 10 bit as I recall. I haven't touched the laptop for the last month. If I can set the bitrate/bpc to 8, would that cause the GPU to provide only 256 colors per channel, causing it to not display colors that are outside that range? I've read a lot about Intel being problematic but can't find the reason why, just that it has dithering by default. Though, if the panel is 10bit with FRC, lowering the bpc to 8 should fix that theoretically, right?

Give me some hope before I turn that thing on after a month. I just hope the GPU won't do stupid stuff like trying to do dithering on pixel color changes - non-static stuff.

It was really not pleasant to "reverse" the side effects of it. It was more than a month of doctors and all of them pointing out to neurology after the exams. Can't go through it again as the quality of life was real bad, I've had that "snow vision" for 15 years - and I'm 30, got used to it, but this was another level.

On my work computer and my home PC I have true 8 bit panels and got no issues. Even my work laptop has Intel graphics, connected via USB-C/DP it causes me no strain. So I probably don't get dithering there.

Any luck with lowering bpc on Intel command center to monitors bitrate without FRC value?

Thanks a bunch, and know there's a lot more people out there with such problems that aren't even aware they have them. I thought PWM was my only issue, as it turns out, it was just causing migraines, PWM today is easy to "remove from life" but dithering is another level, especially on laptops where you gotta look for laptop reviews with exact panels and google them and try to find info.

Seagull

dzonibg

Whilst no dithering is needed when running an 8bit native display, with an 8bit GPU - it will probably still be dithering. I've tested GPUs (with capture cards and video analysis software, not by sight alone) and found they dither when converting one colour format to another, ie RGB to YCbCr444 - one colour will be native to the GPU, and everything else is achieved through dithering. However, from my testing of intel on desktop and intel laptop HDMI outs, I have never found an intel GPU to use temporal (FRC) dithering, only spatial (does not change over time). You can download a free piece of software called ditherig.exe which will allow you to control the dithering settings of your intel GPU. Given you can use your NVidia GPU which is very likely to dither, as is your partners AMD GPU, you might find relief by enabling temporal dithering on your intel GPU which you can do via ditherig.exe - I personally have owned monitors which I can only use comfortably with a GPU which dithered, and monitors which are the opposite. I believe this occurs because GPU dithering helps diffuse the LCD flicker which is inherent to LCD panels caused by pixel inversion.

Your symptoms sound like migraines to me, which will heal in time after exposure to this screen without permanent damage. They will heal faster with exercise, abstaining from any drugs/alcohol/stimulants, and fasting.

I hope this has made some sense, I have some kind of tunnel vision today so proof reading is tricky. Happy to clarify anything.

G3RDAS

Have you tried ditherig.exe? It looks like it has helped me.

It is a way to disable dithering on Intel integrated graphics cards.

Here: https://kawamoto.no-ip.org/henteko/myapp_en.html

dzonibg

Thanks for the reply. I'd try avoid using additional software if possible and check if the new Command Center does the job, since earlier versions didn't allow for BPC setting. Any experience with that? Does it work on NVidia/AMD if you set BPC to 2 bits lower than the panel rating?

G3RDAS

Well, I cannot set BPC setting on my laptop with Intel graphics card. I use the software.
Don't have an answer to second question.

machala

Hi, I am sorry to give you such bad news - I may be wrong - but I do not believe your issues are tied to FRC. Most people are after PWM and FRC usually, but since a while back I no longer think this is the real cause of the main issue. Some minor issue perhaps, but not the main thing, at least not for those who discovered this problem in the past several years and had no issues before.

Recently we even discovered the problem may be coming from the motherboards - and recent motherboards like those for Intel 12 and 13 gen seem to be one of the worst.

One important thing - did you let your laptop manufacturer know? Vendors MUST BE informed of this otherwise we'll always be hearing those replies like "we do not record any other complaints" (like I do all the time).

And one question - did you try to hook your "good" monitor to the new laptop? With what result (I expect it's bad too)?

dzonibg

I'm not sure about that with the mobos. I've built an alder lake PC a year+ ago, 12600K, Asus Z690-A D4 ROG Strix board. GPU is a 3060Ti, Asus TUF if it means anything. It's connected to my Dell Ultrasharp U2719D and I got no issues there. I get only native 8 bit from that panel. No FRC. But… since I use the NVidia GPU and not iGPU, maybe that's what saves me.

I "can" inform Lenovo regarding this issue though I know some issues from a guy in Serbia won't raise any alarms at all. They can blame it on QC or something since we probably don't get the same stuff as NA or EU.

Hooked the monitor to the laptop back when I got it, haven't used it that much but can't recall having much eyestrain. It's been only 2 months of use that got me the symptoms, though it was a lot of use time after work where I also look at an Ultrasharp display. That's probably me looking at computer screens around 10-12 hours per day on average. Haven't had issues until I switched to the Ideapad Pro. At first I though 2560x1600 on 16" is A LOT, and therefore everything was a little bit smaller - it's at 125% scaling. On instance, I use my daily 14" Lenovo Yoga Slim 7 at 150% scaling since everything's too small. Also has Iris, and I don't think I've had issues, but I don't use the small screen that much, just during meetings.

I've also built my girlfriend a new PC a few months back, AMD 5600X + 6750XT, on an Asus B550-F ROG Strix board. It's on a S2721D monitor that has freesync with that GPU and I had no strain on it, though again, haven't used that much other than playing Hogwarts Legacy and benchmarking the system, playing around while setting it up, etc.

Thing is, I really was seeing FRC in my regular vision. I basically saw a matrix of milion by milion pixels moving around. Also on sunlight I had real flickering on my vision when I wake up, it was like 10Hz or something, it'd go away after some time but it was constant when I had my pupils dilated. Though at that time, my eyes were strained as hell. I couldn't look at a PC screen without having that "grain" effect in my vision and it was a PITA. I couldn't basically look at anything without that effect but the screens were most noticable. It's probably best described as that - film grain. A bunch of it. Mixed with visual snow.

Anyways, I'm gonna try the laptop a bit later with 8BPC on that 10 bit screen. Any idea how I can check for FRC? I don't think color banding would be much relevant since that can happen even with FRC.

dzonibg

Seagull

Hey, thanks for the reply. It is migraines but it's a state of "constant migraine" as I've been told.

I'd like to isolate stuff to what bothers me right now - that's the new 10BPC laptop. Other screens have native 8-bit. And really I get no strain I can tell from them, being Nvidia, Intel or AMD.

I haven't found time to try the 8BPC setting on the laptop last 2 days. I'm gonna try it today. I'd try to avoid using Ditherig for now as I don't know what other stuff software might do driver-wise, like causing issues in applications and 3D stuff.

Any chance I can "measure" or check if it actually did something, switching to 8BPC? I've got a drone camera with 960FPS if that counts to something.

dzonibg

Gave up on this for now. Tried 8-bit setting, I can see obvious banding but seems it doesn't help. Got some thought it might have to do with the matte coating of the screen, as the anti-glare is real good. If I get close to it, like 20cms away from the screen, it all looks good. If I look from a normal distance, I see the "playing pixels".

Anyone got a recommendation for a 16" 16:10 laptop that's not an arm and a leg, and we can check it's true 8-bit, no FRC?

Seems like I've found some HP Elitebooks, but not really happy going from 120Hz 1600x2560 i5 12500H to 60Hz 1200x1980 with a P or a U processor.

Gave the Ideapad 5 Pro to my gf and see if she has sensitivity to the screen. If not, well, she's got a powerhouse of a laptop. Was a really good deal for 1k EUR 🙁