laptops without dithering/FRC and no pwm?

dawidd6

Lenovo ThinkPad T14G1 with touchscreen works for me. I have Intel-based one for work and AMD-based one for personal use, both are very nice.

madmozg

The last good macbook pro is 15 inch with Intel 2019 with OS <= Catalina. The next macbook pro 16 inch in 2019 will have FRC. The newer versions of MacOS could also cause FRC even for intel based macbooks, so be careful.

JTL

madmozg My research is inconclusive, but I have reason to believe macOS even dating back to Sierra on certain hardware may be problematic. Really unfortunate but unsurprising.

Liberator005

JTL I confirm that. Had exactly a macbook pro 2015 with Sierra and it was a horrible display.
I would stick with windows.

Liberator005

It's not a rule but I would advise to get an old windows laptop with a bit older tech. Something pre 2017 ideally. Older cpu and gpu have less chance to dither. And screens will most likely be pure 6 bits. At worse, if screen has pwm or you don't like it, it's easily replaceable.

Kev

Liberator005

Isn’t there any other solution? I heard that the MacBook Air M2 should be fine does not have local dithering or PWM. But I guess there should be other laptops. Just using old laptops doesn’t seem to be a great option though.

Liberator005

Kev It is not optimal for sure but some people here just want something to be able to work, they can't afford to be too nit-picky. Don't forget what works for someone won't necessarily work for you, so if you have the means to keep trying recent tech, go for it, but it's expensive and time consuming.

Socrates

Lenovo B50-80 without any graphics card just on the motherboard. Windows 8.1 since 10+ seems to cause issues. Would love a better computer!

Rocket

I spent a long time looking for a good laptop and returned 3 models before I could find a good screen.

Then I bought an asus rog flox x13 6900hs with 3050ti and it very comfortable to work. Matrix 8 bit and does not use pwm

owmyeyes

The Lenovo Slim 7 Pro X that I described here still works fine (only with the Nvidia GPU and built-in screen): https://ledstrain.org/d/1093-temporal-dithering-issues-with-laptops/15

I have realized that AMD GPUs just don't work for me, possibly due to their dithering algorithm. The USB-C with display port output on this laptop is only connected to the AMD iGPU so I cannot use any external monitor with it. The laptop screen itself is high resolution and is perfectly comfortable.

bpo19

owmyeyes Do you know if all laptops that have AMD use temporal dithering? I was interested in an hp laptop that states it is flicker free and uses dc dimming and is 100% sgrb, but it has AMD Ryzen 5 and AMD Radeon graphics. Hp charges a restocking fee to return so I wouldnt take a chance if that is the case. I am coming from a macbook pro 2015 but cannot tolerate any new apple products so I am new to pc's/windows.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

bpo19 Recently learned that ATI and thus AMD cards have used temporal dithering all the way since 2005 when they introduced something called "Avivo"…

https://hexus.net/tech/reviews/graphics/1622-ati-avivo-video-display-engine-technology-discussion/?page=7

Even in 2005 when 6-bit monitors were still the norm, it looks like ATI cards were already hardwired to render all hardware accelerated content in "virtual 10 bit" at all times — even when 8 bit output is selected — and use both spatial and temporal dithering to "downsample" it to other bit depths.

There are ways to disable temporal dithering on some AMD cards, but honestly I would just avoid AMD at this point

CGM1983

I found a laptop that does neither use PWM or Temporal Dithering (FRC):

Model name: Dell Latitude 3440 (model year 2023)

Display: Basic 6-Bit, Full HD

Brightness: 250 nits (do not buy the 300 nits version as it uses FRC!)

MPN (Model Number/Manufacturer Code: H9F48 --> IMPORTANT! There is also a version with FHD and 300nits, but it uses FRC!

I bought and tested it: I can confirm it does not use PWM or Dithering/FRC. My eyes are still screwed from years of FRC/PWM/Dithering abuse but it is much much softer on the eyes.

AlanSmith

CGM1983

PWM is backlight flicker of your monitor
Spatio-Temporal (6bit+FRC) is pixel flicker
Temporal Dithering (GPU) is blending pixels

Do you have this panel? -> NE140FHM-N4N

Open AIDA64 -> Display -> Monitor -> Model

jordan

CGM1983 oh wow! Did you use a microscope to check for dithering? If so did you check it on different colors and different shades of colors?

DigitalHealthhuman

CGM1983

Is this the computer you were talking about? Option 2?

https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/he-il/latitude-14-3440-laptop/latitude_3440_ss/display?guid=guid-b95863c6-ee3b-4e9d-88fc-bce2b2f96aa2&lang=en-us

HealthAwareUser

CGM1983

Which processor is the one you tested?

These are the options I found for this model:

-12th Generation Intel® Celeron® 7305 (8 MB cache, 5 cores, 5 threads, up to 1.10 GHz)

-12th Generation Intel® Core™ i3-1215U (10 MB cache, 6 cores, 8 threads, up to 4.40 GHz Turbo)

-13th Generation Intel® Core™ i3-1315U (10 MB cache, 6 cores, 8 threads, up to 4.50 GHz Turbo)

-13th Generation Intel® Core™ i5-1335U (12 MB cache, 10 cores, 12 threads, up to 4.60 GHz Turbo)

-13th Generation Intel® Core™ i5-1345U (12 MB cache, 10 cores, 12 threads, up to 4.70 GHz Turbo)

-13th Generation Intel® Core™ i7-1355U (12 MB cache, 10 cores, 12 threads, up to 5.00 GHz Turbo)

I think it matters which processor regarding dithering right?

CGM1983

AlanSmith Hi Alan. I do not have Aida64. But you can check here: https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/en-us/latitude-14-3440-laptop/latitude_3440_ss/display?guid=guid-b95863c6-ee3b-4e9d-88fc-bce2b2f96aa2&lang=en-us

CGM1983

jordan I checked the Dell Manual: Latitude 3440 Setup and Specifications | Dell US (Specifications -> Display).

I did not check with a microscope but I notice a huge difference in that the problems with my eyes (hurting, itching, dry, bloodshed) and the terrible headaches are significantly reduced.

jordan

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

Wow that's not good at all thanks for the info! I've been avoiding amd so far so definitely won't ever consider it now lol.

bpo19

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs I wish I would have known this 5 days ago before I bought the hp lol. I got it yesterday and I could tell immediately that it is dithering. I requested a return and they asked if I want something different instead but have no idea what to get.

jordan

bpo19 another member here said the Lenovo 7i 4080 model seems to be ok when tested with a microscope only when 240hz refresh rate is selected. I think someone else also said the asus zenbook pro 14 4060 model is also good but I don't think they tested with a microscope. I'm tempted to try either or but might sit back for now. 7i seems most promising but it's pricey!