photon78s I see the threshold between almost flat signal to high frequency PWM or PWM like fluctuations at 63 to 64% brightness

yup this makes sense, lines up with what notebookcheck said

(even though notebookcheck can honestly be really inaccurate a lot of the time *cough cough saying that the M2 Air has no flicker at any brightness level even though it DOES at ALL levels*, they got essentially the same reading and similar brightness switching threshold here!)

photon78s Switching between 1280 and 1440 Rez didn't affect these readings.

this also checks out, the 63%-64% switching threshold between PWM and flat signal lines up with typical PWM backlight dimming techniques, nothing out of the ordinary here. it makes sense (and is a good sign) that screen content doesn't affect this

      DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs strange, probably due to the newer generation of wifi in apple silicon macs? maybe Find My network/Activation Lock related? (it probably still runs similar code before booting the secure volume even if Find My is not set up)

      this kind of radio related stuff doesn't seem to be an issue for me at all though, i don't feel anything "off" at all starting up the machine or rebooting. it just feels normal

      I'm not going to debate if EMF is a biological issue or not, but the closest "cause and effect" relationship I've seen is EMI or internal "brownouts" of power rails has been linked to causing backlight flicker/ripple that isn't just normal PWM.

        photon78s

        i don’t have a screen right now. I used to have an LG OLED.

        now I also don’t have a laptop lol. I thought about trying the Asus rig strix.. just wish it was more professional looking.

        I also like to use the laptop outside my desk. so relying on a screen is sub optimal.

            Dadab12 What is the reason you are still trying to get Macbooks to work for you? just the MacOS or the ecosystem?

            I build iOS apps, I work on projects with others in Logic Pro. CoreAudio is unmatched in extremely low latency audio on the go at extremely small buffer sizes straight out of the built-in headphone jack.

            The precision of MacBook trackpads and diagonal scrolling that always works is essential for image editing and design work outdoors in places where I can't use a mouse. You can't start dragging a file, switch 2 desktops, scroll a window in both directions, Force Click into a folder without waiting, and drop the file ALL in one single drag gesture on even the best PC trackpad — and even though it might not sound like it, that's something I actually do dozens of times per day. (This is why an actual usable MacBook is ideal for me instead of a Hackintosh laptop)

            Much better built-in apps that I actually use, Preview is essential, nothing really comes close for quick and seamless editing/splicing/markup of PDFs. Generally more ergonomic keyboard shortcuts in most apps. COLUMN BROWSING VIEW IN FINDER.

            Seamless UNIX terminal environment available at the same time as access to commercial apps like Adobe (unlike Linux) without quirks and hacky workarounds (unlike WSL2).

            Due to all of this, even my usable Windows laptop I simply use as a screen sharing client into a Mac most of the time lol.

                photon78s the Opple4 is still giving a roughly useful waveform and not just pure low light noise in my previous testing at 50% brightness

                Great findings! Brightness adjust was not linear for my last 2 laptops (at 80% it looks like 60% in my old laptop, according to Opple4 brightness measurments)

                You talked about 50% threshold for Opple4, could you say brightness values (min, max, avg) - if I get data above it, will say "my opple4 show display noise, not its own"?

                    simplex

                    I was not able to get the Opple4 to reliable distinguish PWM between 64% and 63% like I can with the Thorlabs device. As I increase brightness, the Opple waveform decreases in thickness until about 95% brightness or above 400 nits of brightness so I think the Opple is very noisy.

                    Edit: Repeating Opple measurements might yield slightly thicker or thinner waveforms even when the actual signal should be stable. The device seems suitable for checking larger fluctuations.

                      Dadab12

                      What are you using to reply to me on this website? If it is your phone and you're comfortable that info and phone screen specs might be useful in finding what will work for you.

                          16 inch Lenovo Legion Pro 7i 2023 laptop testing:

                          Using PDA100A2 photodetector, the switch between PWM-like display backlight fluctuations and relative flat line is at 85-86% brightness as adjusted in Windows 11. Overall, the 7i backlight fluctuations are less than those of the M2 MBP TB as I needed to set the photodetector gain to 50dB to notice these tiny levels of flicker. On the MBP, I only needed 20dB gain.

                          jordan BUT when I enter bios and configure CPU settings and also short time booted in HiveOS(Linux mining OS) The x670e Asus makes me feel AWFUL.. the MSI b650m itx one didn't bother me like the asus. I now am a strong believer in motherboards causing issues

                          My research is inconclusive, but I have recorded certain interactions between at least motherboard BIOS's and GPU causing temporal dithering, even when not in a running OS with drivers.

                              photon78s

                              It's actually Iphone 12 PRO. It feels better to me than a laptop for some reason. I use low brightness.

                              I just got a Zephyrus G15 3080 with Ryzen 9. So far the screen with dGPU and ColorControl doesn't produce Nausea. Also the whites are not as shiny for me.. letters and background. With the Pro 7i it was profound.

                              Its just a temporary solution and I'd prefer a strong laptor overall, but from very limited use it seems to not induce the same sensations I had with the Pro 7i gen 9.

                                  photon78s yeah it's super frustrating! I just can't get over how bad one motherboard is compared to another board.. it triggers my nervous system instantly with weird symptoms. Warm with chills, nauseous , anxious, head pressure, also hard to focus on screen without overwhelming feeling.

                                  I do need to work on diet, maybe see if certain foods are a trigger. I do notice temporary relief sometimes after eating with some symptoms which is weird.(My friend experiences this too)

                                  After seeing the other guys comment with the 7i I definitely am not in a rush to try it lol. I am really curious about the Intel arc desktop GPU maybe that could be good if Intel is correct with the no dithering statement.

                                      JTL was that using the capture card? I did try the asus b650e-i am5 motherboard yesterday and I think it may also be fine but that atx x670e Asus crosshair is brutal.. I tried it again yesterday definitely noticeable immediately. This is in bios only btw.

                                      • JTL replied to this.

                                          jordan

                                          Remember that it's the Gen 9 pro 7i. Perhaps the Gen 8 is better as far as color reproduction for sensitive eyes. The Gen 9 is a 100% DCI-P3, and I used it in sRGB mode, so perhaps that made it worse? I'm unsure.

                                            JTL that's good to know. I'll have two other itx sized am5 motherboards I'll be testing soon too. At least testing by feeling wise that is.

                                              I already posted a video here where you can see the flickering on win10 1809 in comparison with win10 21h1 (I don’t remember exactly)

                                              So, lat week I experimented on my safe w10 1809, found the datasheet of the installed panel, and using CRU I increased the monitor refresh rate from the factory 60 Hz to 72 Hz (keeping in mind pixelclock limit searched in datasheet) with autosettings for other synchronization parameters. Then I felt that I couldn’t use the screen, or rather, I could, but after it I felt pain in my temples. This went on for 4 days and yesterday when I looked at the taskbar I saw the same "fast chaotic pixel movement". I set monitor back to 60Hz, but it didn't help. I set nvidia's output to fullrange, but that didn't help. ColorControl also demonstrated no-dithering.

                                              Only a complete reset of EDID settings via CRU helped. After that, I saw that the taskbar has a “lazy slow standard flicker” and after another 1 day I get back my safe PC.

                                              Any ideas?

                                                DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

                                                Edit: Nevermind, I think this is just circular polarization. See this post where Seagull mentioning using tracing paper to help with polarization effects.

                                                https://ledstrain.org/d/2315-vertical-and-horizontal-polarization-as-eye-strain-trigger/4

                                                Have you tested your screens by looking through polarized sunglasses? On my MBP TB, I can never get the screen to go fully black by rotating the sunglasses to a certain angle like 90 degrees like with the 7i and other displays.

                                                Instead I get a blue-purple image here:
                                                https://ibb.co/cQ5Yg5v

                                                Right side is looking through the sunglasses rotated at 90 degrees which is the maximum I could get to dim the screen. So it looks like only certain wavelengths are polarized?

                                                  simplex

                                                  Interesting. Unfortunately, I've haven't played around with CRU yet. Perhaps you were adapted to the default refresh rate and other parameters. Would be interesting to systematically test each variable through EDID settings but I'm still very new to tinkering with EDID.

                                                      photon78s Perhaps you were adapted to the default refresh rate

                                                      I can use another 165hz monitor without issues…

                                                      I change refresh rate in safe w10 1809 setup to "not registered" and got same noise (which gives me eye-strain) as in video with "bad" win versions I tested

                                                      Have a look -> https://filetransfer.io/data-package/iwnh2gOL

                                                      Only EDID reload (I think from monitor's eeprom) made reset to "default lazy flickering"

                                                      Can OS flickering be due to bad EDID interpretation? I can find thread there where guy desrcribe same feeling as mine when set non original framerate, but when I install all win versions above 1809, I get chaotic pixel movement equal I got setting non original framerate in "safe win version"

                                                          dev