Lenovo T480 - Yes, Win10 1809 downgrade matters just like others say here

qb74

I think you should reconsider your buying decisions.
The claim that "you don't care about PWM" while "temporal dithering is very irritating" is just ridiculous.
Temporal dithering isn't the main culprit of eyestrain for most people.
Yes I understand this forum is a niche in a niche, but most people here use atrocious panels.
Display technology has evolved.

Buy something like the B140QAN01.1 [matte] or LP140QH-SP(A2) [glossy] and enjoy higher PPI.

Or even better, ditch 60hz entirely and go for a newer 1440p 240hz laptop (such as the XMG Evo 15 M24)

It's pretty egregious to me how most people here talk about software tweaks, temporal dithering (<1% to total contribution of eyestrain) more than actual physical characteristics which impact day-day life.

Higher PPI (>200ppi) and higher refresh rates (>120hz) are the pathway to a blissful digital display experience.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

qb74 Temporal dithering isn't the main culprit of eyestrain for most people.

i didn't say that temporal dithering was the main problem, i was only trying to demonstrate that temporal dithering is a bit worse for me, compared to mild ~5% depth PWM which doesn't affect me (100% depth strobe-like PWM gives me strain though)

my primary issues with displays aren't related to temporal dithering

QHD also sucks at 13" or 14". I use tons of legacy apps that don't support scaling and they either become blurry or too tiny, and 2x integer scaling creates 720p which is not enough screen space. QHD only works for me at ~15inch or larger, but I've tried 15" laptops and they don't work ergonomically for me (in terms of weight/typing/able to use in tight spaces).

the laptop you mentioned is 15.3" so it makes sense why QHD would work there, but not for smaller laptops IMO

My favorite resolution+size is 1600x900 at 13.3", the size of UI elements is perfect and no scaling is needed, but there are literally only 3 IPS panels with those specs on Panelook, all from 2012-2013 (two LG IPS and one Samsung PLS), and only 1 of those supports eDP. they're super unique because most 1600x900 panels are TN instead of IPS

photon78s

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

Promising. What comes to my mind is understanding principles not just following product recommendations. Appreciate your discoveries.

All of this talk of software processing or post-processing for displays reminds of how some people complain this or that pro studio loudspeaker (also called 'reference monitors') sounds fatiguing because of DSP (digital signal processing) doing something that makes the product look good spec wise and in marketing materials but over doing it and causing issues for some X% users. With displays, we have 2D space + time which is arguably more complicated than audio and human hearing / psychoacoustics.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

photon78s software processing or post-processing for displays

it gets stranger, I'm now trying Ubuntu 18.04 instead of Windows 10 1809 and for some reason, on this LG panel it actually feels a LOT better while running native (not VM) Ubuntu. Still not going to go out and say it's great or reccomendable -- but there is so much less of the feeling that things are "glowing bluish around the edges" or "large gray shadows seem to appear to the left and right of vertical divider lines", white backgrounds are less harsh, and there's definitely less false 3D effect too on many photos. Seems to be less strain while reading too.

I am using lossless RealVNC into a macOS desktop in order to compare the same UI elements/images/text across both OSes. Both OSes are run without any color profile.

BTW spatial dithering (but not temporal) is still currently turned on by default in Ubuntu, haven't tried to change that yet. Before, I tried Windows both with and without spatial dithering.

(This means that the UI and fonts of Windows vs. Ubuntu is NOT what I'm comparing here, but instead what the OS decides to do with the colors, edges, and contrast in what should be the "same" lossless VNC session…)

as one example, the orange "Learn More" button on the left sidebar of AskUbuntu (which is being displayed through macOS Chrome inside the VNC session) seemed to pop out from the screen on Windows 10, but I immediately noticed it appears flatter while I'm booted into Ubuntu

for reference I was running 1809 with June 2017 Intel drivers. I also tried disabling features like DPST and PSR on Windows, also disabled multi-plane overlay, I even disabled DWM itself but had no luck…

on the other hand, Ubuntu (at least older versions) is immediately better for this panel. although not sure how much better yet

so this indicates that Windows itself definitely plays into post-processing as well, even 1809

for comparison, the previous Innolux didn't see the same improvement with [native] Ubuntu, but I feel like for the Innolux there was even more weird stuff going on at the LCD panel level. for example Innolux's patent for "Liquid crystal display having image edge enhancement circuit"

finally, Ubuntu doesn't always help, because strangely my otherwise safe 2012 IdeaPad Yoga 13 laptop seems to somehow create mild eyestrain in Ubuntu even though it's always been "consistent enough to confidently say it's great" on Windows 8.1

cooldudz

hey man I know this is old and I may be asking a pretty loaded question, but how did you downgrade to windows 10 1809? I'm on a laptop that came installed with windows 11 and am unsure how to downgrade to 10. Is there a guide somewhere? I specifically want 1809 like you have because I really resonate with everything you say in your post and have been lurking your comments overall and am in the same boat as you. TN screens are best for me, with IPS feeling the worst. However I am now considering software, and again, your post here really resonated with me. Especially when you describe that pseudo-3d effect that windows 11 uses with text. You nailed it. Most people aren't even aware of that.

Reinhard62

cooldudz

You format C: and install Win 10 from a USB stick.

By the way, no need to go back to Win 10 1809.

Win 10 21H2 is also perfect. No dithering whatsover, the display is as still and unmoving as a piece of paper (whereas Windows 11 was hell for me).

Aquila

Reinhard62 21h2 LtSC doesn't works for me
(2019 LTSC based on 1809 is the best)

cooldudz

Reinhard62 how do you get even 21H2? Because on Microsoft website, 22H2 is the only available to download. This is kind of the problem I'm facing. I can go back to windows 10, but only the latest version. I have no idea how people are getting below 22H2 and would like some guidance on that. Because I found a version of 1809 on internet archive but seems pretty sketchy to install a whole OS off someone's post on internet archive LOL

cooldudz

Aquila How did you get this? Where do you get the ISO to install?

Staycalmsyndrome

There is an alternative for those that don't want to lose any data. The idea is to make the OS think it's already on that version of LTSC and then perform an in-place upgrade(running the installer from the iso in windows), retaining program and settings. I don't know if it works from Windows 11 to 10:
Switch Windows 10 to LTSC 2021(21H2) without losing data

Always backup your data in case something goes wrong.

Jack

[moderator note: Please do not link to Windows ISO's on the forum]
cooldudz The best place to download genuine ISO's is from here. [redacted]

cooldudz

Jack are they safe? Do I need a license key if I'm already on windows 11 pre-installed?

Jack

cooldudz Yes they are genuine Microsoft ISO's. I cannot advise here about the license keys but read more on the massgrave.dev site and the solution can be found there as well. 😉

Sunspark

You don't have to format the drive.

Just make a partition of minimum 64 gigs from the free space (you can shrink the existing partition).

Then use Rufus to put the ISO on a USB drive to do the clean install from and select that empty partition you made as the install destination (not entire drive, but the new partition of size 64GB or whatever size you wanted.)

When booting, you will have a choice of partitions to boot from.

PS. I personally use build 19042.

cooldudz

holy cow! My dumbass was finally able to install Windows 10 1809 and you guys were all right!! This is honestly life changing. I can't believe how much of a difference this is from Windows 11. Really blows my mind. Everyone who said software matters was right. It's not just PWM, flicker from hardware, etc. The OS truly does matter. Text looks super clean and flat. No more of that disorientating, pseudo-3d effect that windows 11 gives where everything looks blurry no matter how much you tinker with settings/drivers/etc.

Reinhard62

cooldudz

It was the same with me. After using Windows 11 for two or three months my eyesight got worse and worse.

I tried ditherig.exe and all the other things that are recommended here. Nothing helped. Windows 11 was "stronger".

I switched back to Windows 10 and after a few weeks my eyesight got better again.

WINDOWS 11 IS A HEALTH HAZARD. MICROSOFT SHOULD BE SUED FOR RELEASING THIS.

Aquila

cooldudz Absolutely, I'm a big fan of 1809 on ledeyestrain group on TG .
It's the gold standard for evey safe build.

I need to investigate if the Win 10 1809 (17763.1098) (updates blocked) and Win 10 LTSC 2019 (based on 1809) are equally confortable .

Staycalmsyndrome

Reinhard62 "In 2014-2015, Microsoft underwent significant restructuring, including layoffs that impacted its Windows testing teams. While not a complete elimination of all testing functions, a large portion of the dedicated testing team, particularly those focused on hardware-specific testing, was laid off as Microsoft shifted testing to virtual machines and relied more on developers for testing.
This change in approach has been cited by some as a potential contributor to the increased number of bugs in Windows updates following the layoffs, though other factors like user error and driver issues are also mentioned."

I guess virtual machines don't have eye strain.

Sunspark

Microsoft is just going to get worse as time goes on.. you must have noticed the news about them laying off thousands of employees along with new applications for thousands of H-1B visas from India to replace them.

JTL

Sunspark Not to get too political, but a certain former Microsoft engineer involved with internal development and QA for Windows made a well known video after getting laid off which he predicted that quality assurance of products would get worse under new management regimes. Even ignoring the possible context to this obscure issue I think it's endemic to the industry at this point.

That video was in 2014.

Reinhard62

Aquila

I have very sensible eyes and I am on version 21H2 Io LTSC. For me it's perfect. No strain whatsoever.

I allow updates and I use the newest graphic drivers (AMD).

simplex

Reinhard62 I am on version 21H2 Io LTSC

It better to know, what hardware (motherboard, CPU, grapfic card, monitor) you use with 21h2

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