screen-Induced Brain Fog & Eyestrain – CCFL + Blue Light Glasses Seem to Help

evthelegend

Hey everyone,

I wanted to share my experience with screen-related brain fog and eyestrain, as I know a lot of people deal with this. until recently, I was struggling with severe eyestrain, which was somewhat manageable until brain fog and dizziness started to kick in. The brain fog hit hard and was completely debilitating.

After trying a bunch of things, I suspected that LED lighting or blue light might be part of the issue, so I started experimenting with external monitors.

I recently switched over to a Dell U2410f monitor, which uses CCFL backlighting instead of the more common LED, and connected it via a USB-C to HDMI cable from a M3 air. I also got myself a pair of affordable blue light blocking glasses to see if that would help alongside F.lux, Stillcolor and staying further away from the screen.

The results? A significant improvement! My symptoms have reduced by about 80%. The brain fog and eyestrain aren’t completely gone, but they’re way more manageable now. I suspect that part of the lingering discomfort might be due to neuroplasticity and my brain adjusting after long-term exposure to bad screens.

but, I am not sure of this, and am trying to pinpoint the last 20 percent of symptoms in hopes of having a workstation where I can be deeply focused, and right now that is just beyond reach because of the remaining symptoms. could I still be suffering from PWM or some other form of flickering? I don't believe it could be the blue light anymore because the glasses cut out 99.9 percent of it so that must mean that symptoms are coming from elsewhere. I have Stillcolor on so this display should be dithering-free and low brightness seems to be better for me and that would not be the case if it were PWM. am I missing something? symptoms also improve the further away I am from the screen so that also re-affirms my suspicions that it could be something to do with light, (although moving further away could change a lot of things)

current symptoms is dizziness mainly with slight eye pressure, it is not extreme but it is very bothersome.

Has anyone else had similar experiences ? Would love to hear if anyone else found a fix for that last 20% of symptoms!

all replies greatly appreciated.

this is a follow-up post from my original about my problem.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

evthelegend macOS doesn't generate "clean" display output even with Stillcolor, there is a lot of weird color management stuff and strange anomalies to the output that isn't even fully figured out by us here yet (for one, Macs are infamously known to send YCbCr output to most monitors — something that is more associated with televisions instead of RGB by default — which makes text blurrier. But even fixing that with a workaround doesn't fully solve the "strange" output.)

A better bet is to connect an older Windows laptop to the monitor. If you still need to use Mac apps, you can use an app like NoMachine or RealVNC Viewer in order to connect to your Mac from that PC.

In addition, the monitor is likely still doing its own FRC dithering (AKA, moving grainy static), as the monitor is probably 6-bit but is being sent an 8-bit signal.

The only known way to get around that one is to use an even older Windows laptop that is running Windows 7 or earlier (which supports selecting "16-bit" output).

Or, running Linux on a PC laptop and then forcing "DefaultDepth 16" or "DefaultDepth 15" in an Xorg config file. (However Linux is also known to have its own set of display issues, it depends on the hardware.)

Finally, compared to standard blue blocking glasses, I find that these "pure red" ones work wayyyy more effectively for me, they even help me "semi-tolerate" some screens I otherwise couldn't read at all! And when they're used with a screen setup that's already "pretty good", it makes it even better, so whenever I don't need color I always use them!

(the ones I linked are the exact ones I use daily. All the other colors offered on the page didn't do anything for me, but there's something really unique about the "pure red" variant)

Finally, in my case I actually did find my fix for that "last 20%", it's that one specific old Windows 8 laptop that I've talked about a ton of times on this forum. Literally I have found NO other screen, including other old devices, that feels like that one laptop yet. There is something different about it that somehow makes it perfect for me.

If you want me to give a run down of my exact laptop + setup I can!

(I actually bought a second one of my exact "perfect" laptop to verify if I can re-create the same setup consistently lol. It's arriving in a few days)

Donux

evthelegend I would probably get glasses, was delaying it for a while due to the need to get it measured and ordered for my head/eyes. Regarding eye strain and brain fog, I am suffering yet again Today from severe brain fog. Yesterday I have reached a point where I could barely speak. And it is all because I kept trying to use that macbook with external screen. I definitely does something to our brains and forehead, I can even relate to micro seizure activity too, as something is happening there specifically with MacBooks. But one thing I am missing in this conversation is - settings for your machine and monitor. I have found that setting everything to sRGB on monitor and on machines does help a lot (except macbook). Also disabling all the sensors, I believe helps too. (maybe this one is placebo, I do not now for sure). And ultimate help is acctually loweing bandwidth of information to your brain, i.e. smaller screens. This puts all your work stuff mentally at least into a territory of less significance - one of the important aspect of detachment.

jordan

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

The u2410f I believe is 8+2frc

evthelegend

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs what was the laptop that you used? I want to try something other than Mac but I don't have anything but that so ill need to order something soon.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

evthelegend

It's the Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga 13 (first generation) from 2012, 8GB RAM, Core i7-3537U with Intel HD Graphics 4000. I am running a ~2019 build of Windows 8.1. Windows 10 might work too but I have a perfect setup on 8.1. It can be found used for about $100-150.

This screen inside this laptop is a 13-inch IPS at 1600x900 (LG Display, LCD panel ID LP133WD2-SLB1). It's essentially "legendary" because IPS panels are pretty much never made in this resolution, usually 1600x900 screens are TN — except for this specific one and 2 revisions of it lol. To me, the size of the UI at this resolution is perfect.

(Note: the Panelook specs oddly say that the panel is matte, but it's actually glossy. Even if you prefer matte this shouldn't affect your decision because IMO this screen is so good regardless)

The rarity of this screen is also great because to my research, this is one of the few cases where a laptop doesn't have the "screen supplier lottery", so as far as I know when you buy this laptop it should have the same panel as mine! (The other two revisions were made for Fujitsu/NEC laptops respectively, so unless someone replaced the screen, the exact revision should also be the same!)

Currently, it's the ONLY (non E-ink) device/panel that TRULY "crosses the threshold 🌀" and solves that final 20% for me.

Aside from the resolution, the screen specs appear to be pretty standard for the time (shockingly it has a WLED backlight and not CCFL but remains amazing) but there's something that sets it apart from every other IPS, it's totally a mystery. My only theory is that it lacks most or possibly all "post-processing"/artificial contrast "enhancement" that would usually be done by the panel etc. Dithering flicker can be eliminated with kawamoto's dithering settings (ditherig.exe).

There is a tiny bit of backlight flicker (it appears more like subtle incandescent flicker on camera instead of intense strobe-like flicker) but surprisingly it doesn't affect my reading/productivity/eyestrain. Usually I do have issues with flicker (I feel super drained under any generic flickering LED lightbulb) but somehow, not here! Your sensitivities sound really similar to mine so I'm pretty optimistic this screen might also work for you.

It's also one of the only devices that somehow energizes me when I look at it instead of draining me (I don't know why. The only other two devices that achieve this for me are the backlit version of Game Boy SP and the 2004 Nintendo DS which also have "perfect" screens IMO). The Yoga 13 does this consistently enough that I quite literally look at it to recover from bad screens LOL. It actually restores my vision back to normal faster than just resting. Again, no idea how but it just works.

If you get one, I can walk you through exactly how I configured mine to get best possible display output + really solid remote connection setup to "use Mac apps through its screen" (which also is great for working around the limited performance of the old hardware by off-loading the computing to a modern device!)

Finally, as I mentioned before I'm getting a second one delivered to me to verify if I really can recreate the same exact feeling on another unit! It will arrive in 2 days

evthelegend

Thanks for the detailed breakdown! I’m sold—I’m going to get one and give it a try! I’ll definitely hit you up for the configuration tips once I get it. Also excited to hear how your second unit compares!

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

evthelegend awesome! make sure to get the Core i7 version of that laptop (since i have no idea if there are any differences in the Core i3/i5 versions)

for reference, here's what it looks like to ensure you're getting the first generation model (and not the Yoga 2, etc.) https://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-IdeaPad-Yoga-13-Ultrabook.84080.0.html

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

evthelegend Just recieved my second 2012 IdeaPad Yoga 13 1st Gen

New one currently arrived with Win10 Home 21H2

It also arrived with 2015 Intel drivers, slightly different versions though (old Aug 2015, new Dec 2015)

(previous "100% usable" one is running Win8.1 Pro. Will keep this one on 21H2 for now unless it doesn't work, will then try 8.1 if so…)

Both have the same panel ID, the very uncommon "IPS + 1600x900" combo: LGD0360 (LP133WD2-SLB1)

I will let y'all know if I can recreate the same exact screen comfort on both 🙂

If this works, I'll post an updated guide with the exact setup instructions

evthelegend

thx, imma try linux on my monitor because it seems like you can mess around with the screen processing so maybe that could be a solution

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

evthelegend fyi for the specific laptop I am recommending, that "perfect" setup I achieved on its internal LCD only works with windows (I tried Linux on that laptop and there's something weird/flickery about the output that I don't get in windows)

but yeah for your external monitor trying different software and seeing what works makes sense!

evthelegend

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

your laptop is LED im sure because its 2012, so I wouldn't be surprised if led is not the culprit

evthelegend

good to know, currently working on making a setup with no dithering,pwm,ccfl, low blue light and any other post processing done to a screen, if I eliminate every known trigger I should in theory have a screen that I can use for hours on end. my current monitor still has pwn so I will be looking for a monitor without it while still being ccfl and running linux. also I ordered a hp omen 27q monitor https://www.amazon.com/HP-OMEN-Gaming-Monitor-Display/dp/B0C171KBM3/ref=sr_1_1?crid=UV62E2QUAB05&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.G__9NXfQainQw06UnsT0sVWVNByMdxbIJ2k1fV2TmSv_8NG2ULcERHL_dH9wvUiYR4ZMFAMdFqbBc6XtXc2bqM0PXBCQeEmjFIrQ_xbe_09aKp-5rsTZUYvqOHo1GhxpYarqwT_HC12L0Oej_3HHgdX_6n9KFg8rfUymHS7AWoy4kWwV6Ou84RJAvybbGx5cpxgZxDIg8RmdkZrYqvmm3VzoNrycrXfVpi650Tw0e68HfIppozriCAVrRk7vfwtxHWySqV9HB6cbtp_8su-3GrgDTYTIME79yb049agI-fg.bgm29CiYr0mHwMc3vP7xgW0_wqp82oP9C3Flq1HbCf8&dib_tag=se&keywords=hp+omen+27q&qid=1728317690&s=electronics&sprefix=hp+omen+27q%2Celectronics%2C202&sr=1-1

basically a perfect monitor besides the LED (if I have severe symptoms again it will confirm that LED is infact a major problem for me as I am not sure yet)

longterm use of my current monitor gives me the same symptoms as before, only difference is it happens more gradually so that confirms ccfl is not a fix, but could be part of one.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

evthelegend if I have severe symptoms again it will confirm that LED is infact a major problem for me

Not necessarily, as there's always the chance that the monitor itself has a chip that adds post-processing/oversharpening/contrast "enhancement" etc. that can't be disabled

Stuff like that dates back to the mid-2000s.

For example, even an LG CCFL monitor from 2005 was advertised to have this:

FLATRON f-engine - World's first picture enhancing chip for LCD monitors: DAFI technology includes a RCM (Real Color Management) function to express vivid natural colors, and ACE (Adaptive Color and Contrast Enhancement) function to enhance brightness and contrast. The technology is ideal for mobile imaging in TV, film…

Another example is a NEC CCFL monitor from 2006 that I own, which adds an annoying, definitely "intentional" white highlight above all text, regardless of the PC connected (that's actually somehow brighter than the color it uses for white backgrounds…). That NEC monitor doesn't even acknowledge that it does this in the manual, and there's no setting to turn it off. (It also keeps dithering even when it's sent a true 6-bit signal LOL…)

This is why it's really hard to find a usable monitor, even older ones.

So even if all the specs of a monitor look right at first glance, there's always the chance the problem you have with it is not related to the specs (e.g. what kind of backlight it uses) and is actually something else the monitor is doing… but sometimes it is the light. The lack of precise documentation on monitors is what makes this challenging

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

evthelegend yeah it is WLED-backlit as I mentioned before, and even has a tiny bit of backlight flicker but not enough to bother me (it's not anything strobe-like though, it's way more subtle than PWM usually is)

i'm pretty sure what makes it so good is a very "pure" output of the colors with little-to-no post-processing and lack of things like "colors leaking into other pixels", i've elaborated on that in some of my other posts

there is still something different about the light source itself though… even though it's WLED and not CCFL, the overall "tone" of the light appears very different from all my other LED-backlit screens. (it's wayyy less harsh even just looking at the backlight itself displaying a black screen).

it is also a very "blue-purple" tinted backlight, so definitely blue light is not the problem for me either.

(oddly, even though I vastly prefer warm temperature lightbulbs for house lighting… I like "colder temperature" screens more than "yellow-tinted" screens.

since most modern screens are "yellowish" and modern lightbulbs is very blue, the world today is basically totally the opposite of what I prefer LOL)

evthelegend

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

interesting, a couple of google searches and it seems like the one I ordered has a menu to disable all post processing affects although it is not clear, (I guess I will see when it arrives)

I was thinking of running a vm of linux on my Mac but if there is something baked into the Macs image processing like the monitors you are talking about then it would be useless to attempt.

have you found a modern "perfect spec" monitor that works? surely they have plenty where you can control all the processing.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

evthelegend have you found a modern "perfect spec" monitor that works? surely they have plenty where you can control all the processing.

nope I have 7 external monitors, 4 CCFL TN, 1 LED TN, 2 LED IPS, and they all basically don't work for me (i.e. don't solve that "last 20%").

the only PC display that truly works for me ((in full color)) is the internal LCD of the IdeaPad Yoga 13 1st Gen

btw yeah, I do not trust Mac hardware to send a "clean image" to a monitor, even if a VM is running etc.

However, one exception…

One of my monitors (Motorola Atrix Laptop Dock, an old phone accessory that's basically a tiny 12-inch TN monitor) actually does work for me --BUT-- literally ONLY when pure maximum white/red/green/blue or black is sent to it --- it starts doing something weird the moment "any shades of gray" are involved.

However, I've been creative and figured how how to use it as a pretty nice "less laggy e-paper alternative" for reading/writing only, but no images, by getting Windows to only output a fully green/black image (not even gray) + no font smoothing + High Contrast themes to ensure app UI is visible in "true" monochrome. It also has no PWM at max brightness

Tried the same thing on my other 5 external monitors and they still caused strain, so it's specifically this monitor that became quite good(!) through this rather extreme strategy…

If you want more info about this one I can let you know, but note that it's only comfortable when used in this exact way, otherwise it causes strain (although is still readable). Also needs specific adapters to get it to connect and is kinda finicky due to this + its small size but I've made it work for me lol.

evthelegend

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs let me know, am very interested to hear !

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

evthelegend really promising first impressions so far. color shifts and viewing angles respond the same way, so it's definitely the correct panel.

of course, every LCD (even when comparing the same model) has slight differences, and I need to try a bunch of different types of work before I actually give a real verdict or and know whether comfort is same/worse/better than my "trusted" one.

one thing i can say though, this is the nicest I've seen Windows 10 21H2 yet…

this is the first time I've ever seen a "modern" OS version running natively on a laptop without "immediately feeling like something is wrong"!!

(however, I don't know how my original Yoga 13 would compare if it was running 21H2, because I don't want to update it from my perfect 8.1 setup LOL.)

only time will tell if it stays this way.

only tweaks so far are ditherig.exe + disable_dpst.bat + disable Calibration Loader service

BTW, outside of screen comfort -- even though this laptop is from 11 years ago it's actually running very smoothly on Win10, webpages and apps are loading fast. -- pleasantly surprised

photon78s

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

I have been using a brand new IdeaPad 5 2-in-1 with less strain that expected for the past month using the internal FHD IPS display (running stock linux mint 22 and amd 780m igpu). Perhaps the dim display and lack of wide color gamut support contributes positively.

https://www.xda-developers.com/lenovo-ideapad-5-2-in-1-14-inch-amd-review/

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

update 1

second Yoga13 has the "same" LP133WD2-SLB1 panel but there are differences

i think it's a different revision of the laptop

even though my original one is perfect… this second one is not good

differences

still better than modern laptops, text is readable and not fuzzy — but i'm definitely getting noticeable eyestrain here + constant annoying "scratchy" feeling in eyes… (compared to my original Yoga13 where i get basically NO strain at ALL no matter where I look on the screen)

i notice a slight "oversharpening", "extra shadows", "contrast enhanced" look to the image… that simply isn't there on my original one, comparing side-by-side…

colors are similar but slightly off. blue is more saturated, green is more "olive". white looks same at first glance, but ever so slightly more orange on this "worse" one (not a yellow tint though)

i can reduce strain with really strong color adjustments — but that's a far cry from mine where i don't need to tweak ANY colors…… on my original, i can literally just stare at the pure display at near-default settings and it's so comfy (in fact, my original was still pretty nice even before i disabled temporal dithering on it)

(It feels different even in the BIOS. Also tried Windows 8.1 with same exact installation USB and drivers/settings, also tried Basic Display. I'm pretty sure the difference is NOT dithering or flicker-related. PWM is the same on both. Both have no color profile.)

not terrible, one of the better devices I've tested this year. but it's nowhere near the "legendary" status of my own Yoga 13.

i have that discomfort constantly lurking in the background while i'm using it, and the amount changes depending on the image like other modern devices — compared to my original, where it's absolute relaxation no matter what's onscreen

it doesn't solve that "last 20% of strain" like mine does. when i put them side by side, immediately relieved when i look back at mine…

it's a different revision?

despite having the same BIOS version, same LCD panel ID, similar manufacturing date, and identical appearance, there are some really odd differences I've spotted

My Yoga13 (incredible, essentially zero strain)

Model Name in BIOS is just "Yoga 13"
System Model "Mocca 2.0"
System SKU "LENOVO_BI_IDEAPAD66" (weirdly literally only 4 results for this online)
i7-3537U
…can't compare bottom sticker since it's too washed out on mine

Second Yoga13 (readable but definitely get strained, not recommendable)

Model Name in BIOS is "Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga 13"
System Model "20175"
System SKU "LENOVO_MT_20175"
"Press F2 for Setup" font is different(!), despite same BIOS version, will post pics soon
i7-3517U
keyboard has way more travel (this one's probably not connected to revision though, just keyboard lottery)

what's really odd is that every used listing i've seen that posts specs, they line up with the second one, i can't find a single listing yet that says "just Yoga 13" in BIOS like mine does

will return this one. but since i need a "backup laptop" in case mine breaks, i will still be searching!

…of course, my original one is still as perfect as it's always been

@evthelegend @jordan

TLDR:

i still reccomend trying a Yoga13 because my original one remains great — but definitely check with the seller that it is Model "Mocca 2.0" in System Information or just "Yoga 13" in BIOS (and potentially avoid "Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga 13" shown in BIOS unless it's the only one you can find)

however this seems way more difficult than expected, given how obscure my original one's SKU is

also make sure you can return it

BTW let me know if there's any images you want me to take a close up macro comparison of before I return this

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

photon78s Perhaps the dim display and lack of wide color gamut support contributes positively.

Not sure about this — because that basic stock Innolux panel in my T480, it was 45% sRGB 220 nit — but even after some tweaks made it """tolerable""", in the end it was still super uncomfortable and giving me immediate strain/headaches. Also had a lot of weird panel-level oversharpening stuff going on

Meanwhile, my original Yoga 13 panel is also 45% sRGB, a similarly low contrast ratio, but is great

So just a low color gamut alone doesn't make a panel safe

(I still generally prefer low color gamut though, since 100% sRGB or higher has its own set of issues for me like way too bright reds)