Lenovo ThinkPad recommendations?

denhaag135

Hello!

I plan on buying a new Lenovo ThinkPad (or maybe a ThinkBook) and wanted to ask if you have any recommendations for Lenovo laptops that were comfortable to use.

Thanks!

Reinhard62

I have a Lenovo T16 which is completely PWM free.

With Windows 11 it hurts my eyes because of temporal dithering (for which W11 is to blame, not the notebook). With Windows 10 everything is perfect. I can work with it without the slightest strain.

See here: Lenovo T16

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

Reinhard62

So according to the link, you have the AMD version instead of Intel?

Since there's little information about AMD laptops here, I'm wondering how the AMD experience compares to Intel

On my T480 Intel with a known-good AUO TN panel I installed, I managed to get Windows 10 comfortable with Basic Display Adapter

(BTW the panel looks perfect in BIOS — many other panels I tested caused strain even in BIOS, but this one doesn't! So I know the panel is good)

However, if I enable Intel GPU driver, even the oldest UHD 620 driver from 2017, there's some strain

Fortunately almost all apps I need work fine with Basic Display, but it's annoying that I have to temporarily enable Intel drivers every time I want to put the laptop in sleep mode or change backlight

So you're saying you don't get strained on Windows 10 even with AMD graphics drivers enabled?

I'm kinda considering getting an AMD 14-inch ThinkPad and swapping the same panel into it to compare it with Intel output, but before I do that, I want to know if people here have had any good experiences with AMD laptops

Reinhard62

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

Yes, I use the normal AMD drivers. No strain whatsoever with Windows 10.

And read the test: The performance of the T16 with AMD is superior to the one with Intel.

I can only say it's super fast and the 16" display with 16:10 aspect ratio is a dream.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

Reinhard62 Which AMD driver version? (Even if it's the latest version, still send it so people who find this way later will be able to know)

Reinhard62

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

Driver version 24.6.1.

But I update the drivers regularly. They have never caused any problem.

denhaag135

Thanks!

I also wonder which GPU I should go for in order to avoid temporal dithering. Intel/AMD integrated graphics, AMD Radeon, Intel Arc or Nvidia RTX?

Reinhard62

denhaag135

I don't think that temporal dithering depends on the GPU.

The dithering is done by software. That's why, for example, you don't have dithering with Windows 10, but you have it with Windows 11 - no matter which GPU you have.

Donux

Reinhard62 There are a lot of people in this forum that report Windows 11 is better than windows 10. Are you sure its not placebo? Are you sure its not because you have fresh windows 10 and did not install something (or it happened automatically on windows 11)?

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

Reinhard62

Yes it does:

Regardless of what LCD panel is installed and Windows version, thinkpad t480 with Intel UHD 620 defaults to spatial dithering, even in BIOS.

Regardless of Windows version, Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga 13 with Intel HD 4000, and Surface Pro 4 with HD 515 both default to temporal dithering, even in BIOS.

Also, with Intel graphics, driver related strain started all the way back in 2011-2012 with HD Graphics 4000 driver version 9. On my HD 4000 laptop, the level of comfort noticeably increased when disabling Intel drivers, even on Windows 8.1.

HD 4000 both marks the first time IIRC Intel enabled temporal dithering on mobile graphics by default (however later have changed it to spatial dithering in some cases) and when the driver-related color processing weirdness apparently began for the first time. The same issues that started with v9 drivers are still present in current drivers.

(Of course panel and OS-level issues also exist, but even with a known good panel & OS the drivers still cause their own issues I can actually notice and precisely describe what I see if I needed to.)

I honestly think AMD Windows laptop users might be a bit lucky as from reading some of the older posts — even though "desktop" AMD seems to be problematic here — I notice that AMD Windows laptop issues posted here seem to be more related to the panel, not the GPU or drivers unlike Intel. OS-related issues also seem to pop up less often (with the exception of Win11).

On the Intel side, "additional" OS-related issues can be discovered going as far back as Win10 1607 and the composition layers update, depending on the hardware. This is in addition to the driver issues that started with v9 lol.

Many people (including me) also frequently discover that Linux is unusable and very straining to use on Intel laptops for some unknown reason, even with known good panels

WhisperingWind

Reinhard62

My experience shows that dithering primarily depends on the graphics card and its drivers (as the driver can enable dithering by sending the appropriate command to the graphics card hardware).

Previously, I tried using Windows 11 with various graphics cards, but I couldn't continue because my eyes started to hurt. The situation changed dramatically when I tried Nvidia GT 210, Intel UHD 48 EUs, and Intel ARC A770 graphics cards. This change was noticeable. Working became comfortable, and the problems disappeared. Recording the output from Intel UHD 48 EUs and Intel ARC A770 to an HDMI recorder and analyzing it showed that temporal dithering is absent in Windows 11 for these graphics cards.

But I don't have much experience using Windows 10, so I can't say much about it.

Reinhard62

Donux

Windows 11 better than Windows 10 when it comes to dithering?!?!?! Never ever. (Please show me the quotes.)

I have Windowss 10 for years now - and never had problems with dithering. Then I installed Windows 11 and had instantly noticeable dithering.

The newer the software the more prone it is to dithering. It's the same with iOS, Android, Windows etc.

denhaag135

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs do you have an idea about what I should look for in a modern Lenovo laptop? I‘m still undecided if I should go for integrated graphics or Intel Arc or AMD Radeon or Nvidia RTX

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

denhaag135

I'm not experienced with the "most newest" thinkpads (i.e. 16:10 aspect ratio ones) but I've managed to get a T480 from 2018 pretty comfy for me.

Here's what I learned. (This applies to the 16:9 14" models, so at the latest 2021/2022.)

I chose thinkpad because it's really easy to install/test any screen you want as long as it's "eDP 1.2 30pin". On T480, I didn't even have to take apart the bottom half - I simply turned off the battery, removed the bezel, unscrewed the LCD, and switched it out.
(Note: For screen swap, buying a "HD" or "FHD non-touch" thinkpad is best. -- Be cautious of the "touch"/2K/4K models since the stock cable is 40pin, meaning you'd have to buy an extra cable and probably disassemble the laptop to try a lower-res 30pin panel. Also, "Yoga" models don't support custom screens, since they use complete screen assemblies.)
IMO a replacement panel is an absolute must because on every ThinkPad I've tried IRL - as far back as T450 - the stock panel causes lots of strain for me at the hardware level (didn't matter whether it was Innolux 1080p IPS, BOE TN, LG 2K IPS, AUO 1080p IPS, all of the stock panels had issues.)
In addition, out of 7 replacement panels I tried, literally only one of them was good (hardware-wise). You can tell because in the BIOS menu it's 100% comfy and feels "flat like paper", which the others didn't. It's a 1600x900 TN called AUO B140RTN03.0. This is currently the only screen I've found that's comfortable enough for me to recommend. (And I have high standards! Even ~2005 CCFL monitors cause problems for me)
Note, this screen does have "mild" PWM (i.e. "brightness dip" style, not strobe-like), but despite this I can say it's still one of the most comfortable panels I've used -- significantly better than even my old "safe" 2012 laptop. (It also has pretty decent viewing angles for a TN)

I'll go out on a limb here and say that honestly the majority of issues with modern screens are likely not caused by PWM. Of course, I dislike PWM (and I hate LED lightbulbs in buildings) and it could be even better it didn't flicker at all -- but IMO it's actually mild/subtle enough here to not interfere with how good this panel is!

In fact, I haven't found any "PWM-free" panels that are as comfortable as this one!

Disclaimer: my symptoms using bad screens are pain/confusion/inability to read/severe fatigue/brain fog. *However, I don't have seizures or migraines.*

So there's the chance PWM is a dealbreaker for people with more serious conditions than me. But if your symptoms are similar to mine, I 100% recommend this panel, I've found nothing better.

So I can recommend a panel, and that's a huge piece of the puzzle solved, but even with a panel that's perfect in the BIOS, the GPU/OS/drivers can still mess it up, at different levels for various people.

The first easy step is using ditherig.exe on Windows to disable dithering. After that, it gets trickier:
This is a really complex topic that would take too long to explain, but with Intel Graphics like on T480 you're probably going to have to disable the graphics driver and use the Basic Display Adapter. That's what I had to do. That got it to the level I can actually be consistently productive for hours! Most common apps still run smoothly with Basic Display, including Zoom, watching HD videos, and running VMs. On Intel Graphics do NOT run Windows 11 or Linux. Even a LCD that's "totally fine hardware-wise" like this one becomes really strainy -- even with Basic Display or sotware rendering. Returning to Windows 10 brings the comfort back. You can run Linux in a VM if needed.
Also, see what I wrote about the NegativeScreen app at the end of this other post to improve the panel I recommended further. I use the TN-ExtraDim-Red-LowContrast filter for the highest possible reading comfort I've ever had with a modern Windows 10 version.

…side note about Windows versions

I tested the "famous" Windows LTSB 2015 on a second partition, and it was actually even better than e.g. 1809 by some amount (but noticeable -- e.g. I don't need the red filter 🙂 ) because it lacks "Composition Spaces" which interacts a bit "suspiciously" with Intel GPU, even with Basic Display Adapter. Again VERY hard to explain in a post.

Normal Windows 10 + NegativeScreen + this panel is already good enough to be productive on and a huge upgrade from any other laptop. So this is an "only look into this if you're super sensitive and absolutely HAVE to" thing, and I can't endorse this. But I'm just pointing out that the Windows version does play a part

So as you can see, I've found a "known-good" panel and have managed to get the best setup I've ever had for me, but be aware Intel graphics "has a temper" and can cause issues even with good hardware(!) if you aren't careful enough.
Depending on whether you're affected by "driver and OS strain" can vary between people, and there's some people here who can use Intel with drivers as long as they have a good panel! But others like me can't -- I need both good hardware and software to make a screen work "consistently" for me.
Note that with the other 6 panels I tested, even with the same software setup that makes my panel work great for me, those other panels were bad at the hardware-level and can't be salvaged at all. Finding this balance why it takes so long to find a truly working setup lol

So if you go with Intel graphics, your experience/requirements will either be "better/less than mine" or possibly the same, depending on your sensitivity.
I have no experience with NVIDIA laptops. Note that most NVIDIA laptops (pretty sure all NVIDIA thinkpads) run their output through Intel graphics before reaching the laptop LCD. Some gaming laptops with G-Sync are the only known way to avoid this because Intel isn't used at all. So not really relevant for a post about thinkpads
No experience with Intel Arc.

My current running theory based on posts like Reinhard62's here is that *maybe* (big if) AMD Ryzen laptops with AMD integrated graphics might be more safe at the driver/OS level, possibly a way around the Intel driver weirdness (which has been an issue since 2012 v9 Drivers). For example, I only see "switching to Basic Display improves things" come up in discussions about Intel laptops.
Of course, I've not tested this yet (and could be totally wrong here) but I am interested in trying it at some point in the future. The only experience I "truly know" is Intel graphics -- and I DID manage to make it work great for me. But there are definitely weird compromises you might have to make to get "good hardware" to display not just a "good" but a "perfect" image if you're super committed to highest possible comfort.
So, as long as you have a panel like the AUO B140RTN03.0 that doesn't have hardware-level issues (which is actually way tougher to find than it seems), I'd definitely consider trying AMD Ryzen laptop too as long as you can swap the panel.
With a good panel, there's a chance Ryzen might be "less compromise" than Intel if you're lucky. If it doesn't work, try a similar Intel setup to mine.

reaganry

seen a 15.4" version for my T500?

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

reaganry Nope, stopped searching after I found one that worked and 15" laptop ergonomics don't work for me.

However, you can still "technically" connect the smaller AUO TN to some larger laptops as long as they support eDP, would just need to find a different "more creative" way to secure it like 3d printing a custom bezel or something, and of course it would be too small — this is mostly useful for testing screens (I tested a few 13" screens by temporarily taping them to my T480, LOL)

Unfortunately though, since a T500 is from when they still used LVDS instead of eDP, the panel wouldn't be able to connect.

There are AUO TNs with similar specs that are LVDS, no idea if they are good though.

For 14-inch ThinkPads the switch to eDP started with T430 IIRC.