Hello! I plan on buying a new Lenovo ThinkPad (or maybe a ThinkBook) and wanted to ask if you have any recommendations for Lenovo laptops that were comfortable to use. Thanks!

I have a Lenovo T16 which is completely PWM free. With Windows 11 it hurts my eyes because of temporal dithering (for which W11 is to blame, not the notebook). With Windows 10 everything is perfect. I can work with it without the slightest strain. See here: [Lenovo T16](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T16-G1-AMD-laptop-review-Efficient-and-faster-than-Intel.690088.0.html)

@"Reinhard62"#p39500 So according to the link, you have the AMD version instead of Intel? Since there's little information about AMD laptops here, I'm wondering how the AMD experience compares to Intel On my T480 Intel with a known-good AUO TN panel I installed, I managed to get Windows 10 comfortable with Basic Display Adapter (BTW the panel looks perfect in BIOS — many other panels I tested caused strain even in BIOS, but this one doesn't! So I know the panel is good) However, if I enable Intel GPU driver, even the oldest UHD 620 driver from 2017, there's some strain Fortunately almost all apps I need work fine with Basic Display, but it's annoying that I have to temporarily enable Intel drivers every time I want to put the laptop in sleep mode or change backlight So you're saying you don't get strained on Windows 10 even with AMD graphics drivers enabled? I'm kinda considering getting an AMD 14-inch ThinkPad and swapping the same panel into it to compare it with Intel output, but before I do that, I want to know if people here have had any good experiences with AMD laptops

@"DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs"#p39505 Yes, I use the normal AMD drivers. No strain whatsoever with Windows 10. And read the test: The performance of the T16 with AMD is superior to the one with Intel. I can only say it's super fast and the 16" display with 16:10 aspect ratio is a dream.

@"Reinhard62"#p39507 Which AMD driver version? (Even if it's the latest version, still send it so people who find this way later will be able to know)

@"DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs"#p39521 Driver version 24.6.1. But I update the drivers regularly. They have never caused any problem.

Thanks! I also wonder which GPU I should go for in order to avoid temporal dithering. Intel/AMD integrated graphics, AMD Radeon, Intel Arc or Nvidia RTX?

@"denhaag135"#p39537 I don't think that temporal dithering depends on the GPU. The dithering is done by software. That's why, for example, you don't have dithering with Windows 10, but you have it with Windows 11 - no matter which GPU you have.

@"Reinhard62"#p39539 There are a lot of people in this forum that report Windows 11 is better than windows 10. Are you sure its not placebo? Are you sure its not because you have fresh windows 10 and did not install something (or it happened automatically on windows 11)?

@"Donux"#p39541 Windows 11 better than Windows 10 when it comes to dithering?!?!?! Never ever. (Please show me the quotes.) I have Windowss 10 for years now - and never had problems with dithering. Then I installed Windows 11 and had instantly noticeable dithering. The newer the software the more prone it is to dithering. It's the same with iOS, Android, Windows etc.

@"Reinhard62"#p39539 Yes it does: Regardless of what LCD panel is installed and Windows version, thinkpad t480 with Intel UHD 620 **defaults to spatial dithering**, even in BIOS. Regardless of Windows version, Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga 13 with Intel HD 4000, and Surface Pro 4 with HD 515 both **default to temporal dithering**, even in BIOS. Also, with Intel graphics, driver related strain started all the way back in 2011-2012 with [HD Graphics 4000 driver version 9](https://imgur.com/a/hdvlU). On my HD 4000 laptop, the level of comfort noticeably increased when disabling Intel drivers, even on Windows 8.1. HD 4000 both marks the first time IIRC Intel enabled temporal dithering on mobile graphics by default (however later have changed it to spatial dithering in some cases) ***and*** when the driver-related color processing weirdness apparently began for the first time. The same issues that started with v9 drivers are still present in current drivers. (Of course panel and OS-level issues also exist, but even with a known good panel & OS the drivers still cause their own issues I can actually notice and precisely describe what I see if I needed to.) I honestly think AMD Windows laptop users might be a bit lucky as from reading some of the older posts — even though "desktop" AMD seems to be problematic here — I notice that AMD Windows laptop issues posted here seem to be more related to the panel, not the GPU or drivers unlike Intel. OS-related issues also seem to pop up less often (with the exception of Win11). On the Intel side, "additional" OS-related issues can be discovered going as far back as Win10 1607 and the composition layers update, depending on the hardware. This is in ***addition*** to the driver issues that started with v9 lol. Many people (including me) also frequently discover that Linux is unusable and very straining to use on Intel laptops for some unknown reason, even with known good panels

Lenovo ThinkPad recommendations?

moonpie

whystrainwhy I could not get AMD 780m to feel good. Supposedly this is fixed with RDNA3.5 and beyond but I have doubts.

If you are looking long term and potentially an exit from Win11 to linux, stick with intel.

whystrainwhy

moonpie thanks for the response. I’ve had issues with Linux on every device I’ve tried, including disabling dithering. Why is Intel graphics the best when it comes to Linux?

moonpie

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs I evaluated 30 new laptops at a store recently the Arc ones were consistently better than the Xe -- but I don't think any screen on those current laptops was truly comfortable for me to work on

ARC = Xe. Unless you mean laptops with an ARC dgpu.

It would be more helpful if you list the Xe type and generation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Xe#Architecture

moonpie

whystrainwhy 20+ years of linux support and documentation. Using linux allows you to lock in drivers and kernel i.e. no forced win11 updates that cause eye strain.

Dithering should be disabled by default on intel with linux. Confirming dithering is easy via command line in linux:

# cat /sys/kernel/debug/dri/0/i915_display_info|grep dither

(Xe drivers may be different location)

KM

The Intel i915 Linux driver actually has dithering enabled when for whatever reason the panel is reported (by whatever mechanism) as a 6 bpc panel. By default it's static dithering and not temporal dithering, which may make all the difference.

moonpie

KM The Intel i915 Linux driver actually has dithering enabled when for whatever reason the panel is reported (by whatever mechanism) as a 6 bpc panel. By default it's static dithering and not temporal dithering, which may make all the difference.

No need to guess with intel:
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/developer/tools/oneapi/vtune-profiler.html
https://dgpu-docs.intel.com/driver/gpu-debugging.html
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/docs/distribution-for-gdb/get-started-guide-linux/2023-0/overview.html

EDID reports panel type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Display_Identification_Data
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Kernel_mode_setting#Forcing_modes_and_EDID

Cirrus2709

Reinhard62 What is the reasons temporal dithering has been put into Windows 11?

Reinhard62

Cirrus2709

It supposedly produces more vibrant colours. And eye strain.

Cirrus2709

denhaag135 I have tried the new ThinkBooks (since they're one of the rare laptops that have a full array of ports and support 2 NVMe drives). It was a failure, i felt very disappointed. The screen is PWM-free, yes, but Lenovo switched to an extremely grainy matte cover for the display which makes the picture look very straining and inaccurate.

I've browsed through various devices and found that until somewhere around 2020 Lenovo used a semi-matte display cover which was perfect and combined the best of both worlds. Not reflective like a glossy screen, but still with very vivid colour.

I have no idea why they stopped producing those and went for the extreme-matte (ThinkBook/ThinkPad) and extreme-glossy instead (in their Yoga models).

If anybody knows or has an official record as to what are the latest devices to feature semi-glossy displays, i would be grateful.

Those are the most comfortable for the eye, all things considered.

moonpie

Cirrus2709 I have no idea why they stopped producing those and went for the extreme-matte (ThinkBook/ThinkPad) and extreme-glossy instead (in their Yoga models).

Extreme-glossy is awesome. It helps break the image to make a display even easier on the eyes. The image/text looks so much clearer.

Reinhard62

pipapoh

I have the one with 2560 resolution.

Cirrus2709

Reinhard62 The screen per-se yes, but the reflections certainly not. Those create a huge strain on the eye/nervous system.

pipapoh

Thank you Reinhard.

moonpie

Yes, i came to the same conclusion. I got a X1 Yoga since 2019 and its so comfortable on the eyes.

Cirrus2709

moonpie No it is not. I used to use glossy displays exclusively and love them for those qualities. But this type of displays Lenovo used from 2018 to 2020 is better than that. It's equally vibrant as a glossy screen, but without all the reflectiveness. That's why i'm wondering why they stopped making those.

Cirrus2709

pipapoh No, you don't know what i'm talking about.

pipapoh

Cirrus2709

Ah, ok I understand. You are talking about that one I guess?

Cirrus2709

pipapoh Yes yes yes!

Donux

Dual boot windows 10 and ubuntu is the best setup for older hardware. You can switch back and forward based on how you feel. But for me still windows 10 produces fatique over longer run, and windows 11 cause eye strain. And sometimes windows 11 feels good, I am not sure what the hell is going on. I only know one thing - constant switching works, and that folks in this forum report similar sudden changes in how they feel using each machine.

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