• Hardware

  • The fact that only some displays reliably do this is important

Hey folks.

Work full time on laptops for 23 years using them all day, every day.

My first experience with these bizarre symptoms of eye pain, headache, eye strain and spaced out feelings started when I bought a Samsung S21 5G mobile phone.

I noticed that the blacks seems too extreme, there was this strange sharp contrast with the whites and it was like there was this false sense of depth perception that - rather than being cool - made it impossible to focus on.

I explored whether it was PWM by trying other models and it didn't seem to be, I did temporal dithering tests and the device didn't seem to.

I tried a Redmi Note 8 at the same store and swapped it and never had another issue…

Until I upgraded my old Acer Swift 1s (I had two) for an Acer Swift 3. No matter what variation of these I bought and tried - intel gfx chip, AMD ratheon or Ryzen various it was the same - instant eye pain, blurred vision, unable to focus.

Some of these Swift 3 SF314s have no PWM and supposedly no temporal dithering yet it was instant every time.

The important point here is I have used Swift 1S and a MacBook Air 7.2 all day every day with zero issues at all. So it's not my eyes or my brain. It's not one faulty monitor.

Next I tried ab Asus Zenbook and another Asus and exactly the same issues.

All of the devices that I have tried (some annoying which I purchased online and had to return or re-sell) have the same display issue:

  1. The Blacks are very intense yet not quite black
  2. The contrast with the darks and whites is extreme no matter the adjustments made
  3. There is a strange effect that appears to create mild depth perception that is off and hard to focus on.

Refresher rate adjustments, display driver changes, dithering tests and PWM all tried or investigated without any benefit.

Finally I tried a newish Acer Travelmate Touch screen and to my happiness it works fine and the screen is perfect.

The screens on all do these devices gave me an almost immediate headache, eye pain and nausea:

Acer Swift 3 SF314-43 Ryzen

Acer Swift 3 EVO SF314-43 Intel

Acer Swift 3 SF314-42 Ryzen 5 AMD Radeon

Asus Zenbook Ryzen OLED '14

ASUS 16gig with Nvidia GeForce Intel 4000

Samsung Oled Galaxy A55

Samsung Galaxy S215G

Samsung Galaxy S22

Screens that I can use all day every day and have no eye pain, blurred vision or any issues of any kind:

Acer Swift 1 SF114-31

Acer Swift 1 SF114-32

Acer Swift 1 SF114-33

Acer Travelmate P4 Spin 14 touchscreen N22Q24

MacBook Air 7.2 Intel HD graphics 4000

Xiaomi Redmi Note 8

Xiaomi Redmi Note 10 Pro

Xiaomi Redmi Note 10 5G

    Zen242

    Are you using the "good" laptops on Windows 11? I've yet to find a laptop on Windows 11 that I can use so maybe there is some potential here.

        ocean10 yeah I thought the same but the Travelmate and the old Swift 1s are fine on windows 11 for me so it's not a windows 11 wide issue like I previously suspected.

          • Ttsb

            • Post #4

            Which version of Win11 you mean its safe for you?

            Personally I'm getting to the conclusion, that Win11 is generally a no go for me, at least so far.

            Yeah currently using Windows 11 version 23H2 no issues as long as I use the Acer Swift 1 or Acer Travelmate, on the Swift 3s Windows 11 or Windows 10, doesnt matter it fries my eyes.

            • qb74

              • Post #6
              • Edited

              Zen242
              The laptop itself doesn't reveal much to someone recommending you a new display, do you perhaps know which specific panel your laptops have employed? You could just be sensitive to a specific dithering technique employed by the panel that some laptops used, as mentioned here

              You also seem to be having issues with OLED, which is nothing extraordinary.
              All OLEDs are not good for eye health, flicker sensitivity affects all humans. It's just a matter of whether they perceive it or not.

              I think users here should focus on pinning down specific issues with the display hardware of a panel before dissecting software intricacies.

                Zen242 There is a strange effect that appears to create mild depth perception that is off and hard to focus on.

                Yes, this is the key, IMO.

                Nearly every single device (or possibly all devices) which have caused strain for me are united by displaying some variant of the "false sense of 3D depth perception" effect.

                (This is in regards to traditional screens that are "supposed" to physically be 2D, but appear to us as if they're trying to trick the eyes into perceiving 3D depth in photos — even if the same photo on printed paper would look entirely flat. This is addition to e.g. larger UI elements appearing blurry and hard to focus on, as if they feel like they're "floating" in front of the screen.

                This isn't meant to include "actual" stereoscopic 3D screens like VR, etc — which surprisingly have actually been rather OK for me in the past)

                This is a big reason why I think our most impairing issues might primarily be caused by something else entirely, compared to the typical assumptions of PWM/dithering.

                Those def can make a difference too, but I feel like it's not the primary issue…

                The fact I own a few older devices that DO have PWM, but have little-to-no "false 3D effect", and those devices ARE comfortable for me is what makes me doubt flickering is the only thing behind our issues (even though I totally agree that more screens should be flicker-free)

                -

                The really strange part is that I've also found that this problem with the false 3D effect has probably been around A LOT LONGER than we think. This means it will require some digging to figure out exactly when it was "invented" and what causes it.

                I've actually found a few instances of the same issue going all the way back to 2001.

                The main difference is that in the past, it only occurred on certain panels, and a good amount of devices were unaffected. Whereas today, the effect is both more intense, and used SO frequently on nearly -every- single new panel and GPU.

                Case in point: Old Nintendo systems

                Some are perfect for me with no issues, legitimately some of the most comfortable screens I've ever used in my life.

                But, others actually DO give me strain and I perceive a false 3D effect that is very reminiscent of the same issues I have with modern devices.

                NO strain: My 2002 Game Boy Advance SP (AGS-101 with backlit screen), and my 2004 Nintendo DS [TOP screen]

                DOES cause strain/disorientation: 2001 Game Boy Advance (even though it is a RLCD!) and my 2004 Nintendo DS [BOTTOM screen]

                -

                The 2001 GBA is the absolute worst, everything looks like it's hovering above the screen at different depths, and I have to refocus constantly. The fact it's an RLCD does nothing to improve this, even in direct sunlight. The LCD on the one I tried looks like the original, I don't think it's a replacement. IMO this rules out backlights as my main problem. I am shocked a 2001 device can cause this many issues for me.

                Meanwhile, playing the same games on my 2002 backlit GBA SP is absolutely PERFECT. The screen is flat as paper — many times it even looks more flat to me than E-ink! It is my go-to "good screen" to compare other LCDs to.

                -

                My 2004 DS is the most fascinating example because both screens are supposed to have the same specs and resolution.

                But even though the top screen looks crystal clear and very flat to me… the bottom screen appears hazy/blurry and I perceive a sense of depth, in addition to some red color fringing and white sharpening-like halos — which I don't see on the comfy top screen. (This was easy to compare on games where the same character moves between both screens.)

                The top and bottom screens on mine are definitely from different manufacturers as the color gamut is much more inaccurate and washed out on the bottom (strainy) screen.

                The good thing is since both the good and bad screen are on the same DS, it means the DS's variant of the issue happens at the panel level. Apparently the 2004 DS LCDs are from two suppliers (Sharp/Hitachi), but I'm not sure which one is behind the problematic panel in mine. I don't want to take mine apart as it's still in great condition.

                (I didn't notice this when I first got the DS, but that's only because all the old DS games I had back then coincendentally only used the top screen for gameplay. So I never actually looked at the bottom screen for any extended time until recently)

                    • JJTL

                    • Post #8

                    DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs Nearly every single device (or possibly all devices) which have caused strain for me are united by displaying some variant of the "false sense of 3D depth perception" effect.

                    For the sake of research, are you aware of any attempts to "emulate" this technique in software on an otherwise "normal" device?

                      Zen242

                      Reading this on my Swift 1 (running Linux Mint) - the only screen I feel comfortable with although I always have the brightness as low as possible (usually the lowest).

                      Thanks to everyone for their great posts in this thread!

                        7 days later

                        DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs Nearly every single device (or possibly all devices) which have caused strain for me are united by displaying some variant of the "false sense of 3D depth perception" effect.

                        I have a similar problem. I could never use my brother's Nintendo DS 2004 model. It made my vision blurry and out of focus. To me it looked like the images were moving and shaking on the screen even though the image was still. I have a similar problem with the PSP 2005.

                            Zen242 While temporal dithering may not affect you, I'm quite curious to know if its for sure that the laptops you mentioned don't use it. For recent years, almost all laptops have tried to "keep up with the times" but offering HDR. If it supports HDR, I'm 99% sure that it supports temporal dithering.

                            Regarding touch screens, in general, I haven't had an issue with them either. I'm thinking it has to do with the color space those panels usually use. Most I have come across are 6bit+2 FRC which for some reason I can decently tolerate. I see that companies like Uperfect offer touch screens that max out at 72% NTSC which is roughly 99-100% sRGB.

                              If that 3d effect you refer to also makes you dizzy, count me in. This is what I experienced when this all began for me with the OLED TV situation. Staring at the screen with no motion yet still feeling like my brain was on a rollercoaster.

                              Larkenn

                              On my 2004 DS I have that issue but specifically only on the bottom screen.

                              But, since the top screen is fine as I mentioned — actually one of the most comfortable screens I've ever used — I can still play my 2004 DS for hours with zero strain, as long as I never look at the bottom screen.

                              With the absolute best being the GBA backwards compatibility mode that entirely shuts off the bottom screen (the same effect is possible in DS mode if I physically covered the bottom screen with a sticky note or something).

                              That top-screen-only mode reveals just how heavenly the top screen is on mine LOL. I actually play games in this mode every day for the past few months, specifically to restore my vision as I actually have less blurry vision afterwards — unlike so many other devices!!

                              The color output of each screen looks really different, the DS top screen colors look more accurate, very crisp and "pure", compared to the weird hazy colors and color fringing I see around the edges of text on the bottom screen.

                              (That's why I think it's a panel supplier lottery problem as I said in the previous post.)

                              I assume that the old one you tried had both panels from the "bad" supplier.

                              Whereas on mine, only the bottom panel is bad, but the top one is IMO amazing.

                                  DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs I assume that the old one you tried had both panels from the "bad" supplier.

                                  I only tried to play games that used the top panel so I have no idea if the bottom panel was good. The top panel must have been a bad panel.

                                      Larkenn

                                      Really interesting. So definitely confirms there's two different suppliers, because yeah on mine the top panel is awesome, but the issues you describe are the same as the issues I have with mine's bottom panel

                                      (So in my case, the issues are fortunately easy to avoid by just not looking directly at the bottom panel which isn't needed for most games)

                                      This makes me wonder if there's a 2004 DS with a bottom panel that's just as good as my top panel. Then I swap that panel into mine and then I have an absolutely perfect DS

                                        dev