• AbstractOther

  • Treatments, desensitization, pills, exercises - solutions

martin

  1. Anyone near New York City?

  2. Those beads on a string are called Brock String?

  3. I noticed something very very odd today. In a room with what I suspect are harsh LED lights (give me eye strain almost immediately), I can detect flickering (PWM?) on someone wearing a checkered shirt. Looking at this shirt I can see a very fast flickering. Looking at solid colored shirts (or other things in the room) do not show any visible flickering. This type of shirt in the sunlight does not seem to flicker.

Example shirt: http://www.tommyhilfigertshirts.com/images/product/Tommy-Hilfiger-Gingham-Cotton-Shirt-Ebony-Black-Checked-Shirts-Dm0dm01837-3.jpg

  1. Was PWM a problem for you and is it now tolerable?

      ryans It's not light related, it's an optical illusion. I get the same effect from the shirt. Illusions are some pretty freaky stuff. F'instance, this one, it will look like it's moving and I guess flickering, but it's actually not, copy and paste the following if you want to see an example of a surprisingly strong one. I didn't link it directly because not everyone will want to look at an illusion. imgur.com/rPTPZ

        martin This all sounds about right for my situation. I even went through the 'I'm going to have to get a manual labour job' phase aha! I'm learning how to relax the right muscles right now. It took a lot of practising and visits to a good physiotherapist. Even now it's hard, I think I'm just a chronic muscle tenser and it just happens like a bad habit. But it seems like we have some kind of a path to get over it. I imagine that this is problem that's particularly difficult to deal with in the last few decades, as screens will be much better in 10 years time (not to mention modern lifestyle stress). I appreciate the offer for Optometrist contacts but unfortunately I'm in Australia!

        A question though: do you experience flickering in your vision in dark environments? I get this a lot these days, which I believe is a symptom of ocular migraines. Usually occurs after having eye strain and viewing bright light sources.

        ryans I've had similar experiences with patterns and harsh lighting. I remember freaking out a bit the first time but nowadays it's pretty standard. I also get ongoing flickering in my vision in dark environments, which is probably due to ocular migraines.

            While I agree that there is definitely a chance that lack of true binocular vision/convergence insufficiency could be the culprit, we know from evidence that displays ARE employing flicker, and desktops also using dithering. Would you knowingly (even without discomfort) sit in front of a strobe light for hours on end?

            I'm just suggesting that while relaxing the eyes could help to 'tolerate' the screens for longer, there may be neurological/physiological effects of using these displays that go undetected.

            I am also in a small minority with Strabismus, and due to how I was born, will never attain binocular vision. So this method of vision therapy will not help myself.

            I am aware that people with small deviations can practically cure themselves with vision therapy, so wishing you good luck. A book I highly recommend is Fixing My Gaze by Susan R. Barry.

            • KM replied to this.
            • KM likes this.

              diop we know from evidence that displays ARE employing flicker

              It might be even worse than we thought. It seems even "flicker-free" displays flicker. There is high frequency but no stable light. The ones I tested so far flicker at <1% to 6%. One might think those are values low enough not to matter in any way. But what if they do? An single, instant change of 5% brightness is visible by the naked eye. So the information clearly passed through all nerves into the conscious part of the brain. And now imagine flicker of 5% at 200 kHz.

                a month later

                hpst I am one month in out of possible 6 months. There is improvement with the exercises, what was impossible at the start is now easier and the speed response of my eyes, which I measure during each exercise, is improving. However an iphone I have for testing still triggers pain when I use it without the glasses. With them it takes a lot longer to develop, but 2hrs of reading on if for example still leave me very tired and dizzy afterwards. Reading is the most difficult, pictures are easier. Which makes sense. In the end the theraphy might raise my tolerance, but not make the problem disappear. I cannot see until I finish it. I wil lalso do some testing with my optometrist, where he is going to observe my eyes while I am exposed to these devices and LED light for any weird movement or anomalies.

                He said the training is hard, exhausting and often painful, not everyone is up to finishing it and I had to convince him to let me do it.

                    martin

                    I had a second opinion as you advised and was told while I do have a slight vertical convergence misalignment, I've been repeatedly told that it cannot be my problem here as I do not have binocular vision. Since childhood I have had "monovision" where one eye was used for distance and one for close. Over time as distance vision decreased in the distance eye I just wore one contact lens, and eventually had Lasik surgery in that one eye. Any attempt to correct both eyes results in double vision and bad strain so severe I was told even if I had binocular vision they'd not expect therapy to fix it and prisms would be required.

                    Somehow my body "chose" monovision to deal with this imbalance 30+ years ago. It's never been a problem for me, always had fine peripheral vision and no issues. Every doctor has said leave it alone as trying to correct and create good binocular vision adds problems for me. I don't know if it's connected to this but feels doubtful since I can get on this 12yo laptop and sit at it 12+ hours until every bone aches, or read all day, or do whatever else and my only visual problem is presbyopia from old man eyes trying to read small labels etc...but I have no strain in any scenario other than modern LED backlights. If it was as simple as my eyes being the problem I'd have it in multiple settings. Doctor suggested a single lens reading glasses for the left eye which has presbyopia now due to age but I already tried that and it didn't work. Not paying hundreds of USD again for that.

                        hpst I'm the same as you where I have not found one LED-backlit computer monitor that is proven tolerable for my own use for an extended period.

                        We have a Mac station at work to do Apple App Store iOS promotions on, and apparently our Desktop Support team has mentioned there are no more CCFL-backlit monitors left in inventory (like the Dell U2410 that I'm using right now), and that all they have left are LED-backlit monitors that all give me instant problems like the Dell P1913.

                        Last month though, I faced an unavoidable situation where I had to use that monitor for about 30 minutes. About 4 years ago, 30 minutes of exposure to one of these displays once gave me a splitting 4-day migraine that was horrific. That was while I worked together with someone at their desk, where their settings would be default. In this situation, I cranked the brightness to 0, changed the color temperature to Warm on the OSD, and wore a pair of polarized sunglasses. I was pretty amazed that after 30 minutes spent at the end of a work day, I had no issues after at best, and mild issues at worst. It didn't cause a lingering migraine.

                        However, looking at the display for under 1 minute a few days prior to this caused a 3-4 hour migraine. That situation may have been default settings w/ no sunglasses.

                        Curious, have you tried sunglasses (polarized) against an LED before?

                        • hpst replied to this.

                            MagnuM

                            The LED laptop displays I have are horizontally polarized so they are black when wearing polarized glasses...so I cannot really test that. I doubt polarization is my cause because I have an old iPad 2 with ios9 thats fine for me...and its led/ips and vertically polarized....but any other new ipad or tablet I try...even with those same specs...hurts me. It's always like this where I can never say "always X is bad for me...or always X is good for me".

                            I have noticed a false sense of security I get after being off an LED display for a week or more...I can then use one for a day or two with much less strain than if I am on it every day...but by the 3rd day its always flared up severely again and even a few minutes is too much. I've tried pushing through to adapt, as I have seen an occasional person claim their problems went away after a couple weeks....but its cumulative and just horrible. Takes days to fade. Then I can repeat it later...faking myself out again that maybe I can stand it now..then gets bad again.

                                hpst Wow, you're lucky you can last days on an LED with a set of "fresh eyeballs". I'm limited to about 2-3 minutes.

                                Have you tried the FL-41 tint before? It's one specific for migraine sufferers, and I believe patented as well. One company that sells it is Theraspecs:

                                https://www.theraspecs.com/

                                I have a pair of overfits I use during emergencies where I go to a computer lab that only has LED monitors. I can last about an hour with these on, as well as reducing the brightness to 0 and shifting the color temperature to warm.

                                I must have a light sensitivity of some sort, because why does reducing the brightness help so much (which would increase the PWM problem for those sensitive to flicker). It's been suggested to me that I have Irlen syndrome, which is often treated with colored lenses, so it's an interesting theory, but perhaps I haven't found the combination of tint colors that works. I would also, you know, rather not have to wear colored glasses around everywhere if I can help it, if you know what I mean!

                                  hpst You have to explain something to me as I do not understand - you have monovision as in you only use one eye and the other is covered? Or that your brain prefers one eye even though you look with both? Because if its the latter and the fact that LED might be, for some yet unknown reason, forcing your eyes to work together, it would explain the strain.

                                  • hpst replied to this.

                                      martin
                                      Intentional monovision is quite common with laser eye surgery, cataract lenses etc so you can see near and far without needing glasses since if your eyes can't do both you need to choose one or the other. Healthy, young eyes can both see near or far but still favor one for each thing...its just in my case I have no choice.

                                      In my case one eye can see clearly at distance from say 30cm forward (displays are twice that far away)....one eye can only see clearly up close in the 7-20cm range. I do have that small gap there now due to age related presbyopia (for 15 years or so the ranges met up evenly) where nothing is clear in the 20-30cm range. Now of course the close eye can "see" at a distance but its blurry.

                                      So yes my brain surely still "sees" the blurry side too and combines that info with the clear eye for better peripheral vision etc (since peripheral is blurry anyway). I am sure my odd eyes aren't helping matters here, but have a hard time believing this is the root casue since the issues that brought me here and are messing up my life happen only with modern LEDs and very quickly. I do get annoyed and sometimes strained trying to read small things in certain ranges and light as anyone my age does due to presbyopia...but the computers and tablets etc are all outside that zone and I can look at other things at those same distances without issues.

                                          hpst Have you tried patching the distance eye and trying an LED just to rule it out? Just like martin hypothesized, maybe the LED somehow is making your eyes work in a different way, when they normally don't.

                                          • hpst replied to this.

                                              MagnuM I can't do that as I cannot see past 20cm in the near eye. I don't have glasses for distance for that eye.

                                                  hpst How about covering the other eye then? Look here - https://migraineagain.com/led-lights-good-planet-bad-headaches/ I havent noticed it when I first read the article year ago, as my head was full of other theories. However this supports my theory -

                                                  "According to Prof. Wilkins, this mechanism could trigger the onset of headaches as the flickering may disrupt the movement control of the eyes and force the brain to work harder. Likewise, the flickering of the lights raises the odds of suffering visual conditions such as double or multiple visions."

                                                  As my issue is exactly of having to already work hard to keep singular image with my binocular vision, this makes sense.

                                                    4 months later

                                                    For those who tried cannabis medication: Do you think it is THC that helps you, or might it be CBD (cannabidiol)?
                                                    Oil drops with 5% CBD are legally available here (and absurdely expensive). I wonder if it's worth a try and if 5% are enough. And how many ml it would take to get relief.

                                                      KM CBD only good for prevention. I find THC is important for healing the strain.

                                                        KM
                                                        Hey I tried out those expensive CBD oils with 5% and also 10%.

                                                        Its a good thing and I feel a bit better with them. However they do not really help with the eyestrain problem.

                                                        • KM likes this.
                                                          5 days later

                                                          KM A new scientific study I just came across.

                                                          https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181217151537.htm

                                                          I feel that this is only relevant if you already have preexisting eye and/or optic nerve damage. I don't know if I ever mentioned this before but when I was born I had a damaged optic nerve but only started having the problem (first from lights, not computer screens) in September 2011. Then it all went downhill from there 😐 lol.

                                                            dev