Struggling to find a new monitor or macbook that doesn't cause pain or nausea

concernedcoder

Ah just adding, this IPS display also gives me the same experience:

Legion Pro 7 16IRX9H
Model: 83DE006CFR

What a headache 🙂

Donux

I did have eye strain with BENQ PD2705Q on macbook, so TCON on the macbook should not have played any role here. But, I have to say, I did not have concrete confirmation from BENQ that this is native 8 bit plus FRC for HDR, and that it is fully flicker free, rather than hybrid DC dimming and PWM solution. They are really smart how they answer my questions. Maybe I will need to ask them again, and formulate the questions correctly, just like I did with Dell robot. Only thing I know, Dell is stocked really well, and IT buyers in companies who buy in bulk, know the concerns of emplyees and may look for better solutions. But this is just a speculation.

Regarding M1 macbook pro, there are mixed reviews. You can google M1 macbook pro and eye strain and you will have many cases of customer complaints. Or data from this forum, https://ledstrain.org/d/2313-my-possible-solution-for-the-eyestrain-on-m1pro-16-macbook-pro/12. So it is clearly not a "sure thing" buy.

concernedcoder

Hi all and AshX.

Just an update.

I've received my refurbished 2022 m2 mac pro with touchbar. Got it all setup.

My hunch was correct, no issues at all with this device. Using it right now. Stillcolor is not installed.

I took another look at the m4 display on the air in the store and within 5 minutes I felt the usual eye discomfort.

Something is fundamentally different about the displays with the notch that I just can't get on with, even though they honestly look the same if not slightly bigger.

AshX

concernedcoder

This is amazing - thank you for the update! I’m assuming it’s on the latest version of Sequoia, too?

I’m going to pick one up hopefully next week. I’m praying it works out because as you probably can relate, this whole thing has been soul crushing and career destroying.

Thanks again because money is tight and I wasn’t sure I wanted to tie up $1k+ for nothing. Fingers crossed! I’m glad it worked for you!

concernedcoder

AshX

Definitely see if you can buy from a place that does returns just in case, but i think everyone here knows this.

I actually put stillcolor on because it just seems like more noise for the eyes which i'd rather not have. I honestly think it's mostly a bit snake oil for me as to if it actually helps or not long term.

Yes I'm on the latest. Software updates have never triggered anything for me personally.

My eyes still ache a little bit but they're honestly still recovering from all the other devices i was trying to adjust to. I think itll take a good week or so more for them to be fully rested.

This issue has kept me up all night before as I was in a bit of a panic wondering what to do, as I pretty much rely on a portable, good laptop that is running macos to perform tasks that earn me money. I'd consider switching to a windows laptop but I really can't be bothered to go through all this hassle again. It's an exhausting process and my heart sinks every time i try a new device and feel my eyes struggling again.

Please do let me know if this works for you!

concernedcoder

AshX did you get one in the end?

concernedcoder

Just as a note: I feel like my eyes prefer font smoothing being off

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I think font smoothing may be done with dithering on the newer macOS.

It was done with antialiasing on the older ones.

AshX

concernedcoder

I haven’t yet. I’m waiting until I can make the money work to pick one up 😭 Is it still working for you?

Donux

AshX I also would like to know answer to this question, as sometimes initially someone might feel ok, but then eventually same symthoms come back 🙂 I think @DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs did say its a good one, but still as I understand does not really work anywhere in the greed zone.

concernedcoder

AshX Yep still fine, just like my old intel macs, no issues at all.

Can I just get a macbook pro m4 with this display please Apple?

I don't care about all this crazy 'liquid retina XDR' or 18 billion colours, just give me a simple display, it's good enough as-is

AshX

concernedcoder

Just got my M2 13” MBP Touchbar today. I actually found a brand new, sealed one and it came with MacOS Ventura 13.2.1 pre-installed.

My experience after using it for an hour was similar to yours. None of the symptoms I got using the new Macs or old Macs with the gray color flicker. So I’m definitely sensitive to that low frequency FRC. Couldn’t tell whether Stillcolor helped or hurt. Font was much sharper out of the box than the newer Macs.

My heart rate is pretty jacked up (I have underlying medical conditions: POTS and dysautonomia). I was pretty anxious about using it because of the awful physical symptoms I’ve gotten from the other computers, so that could be part of it. We’re also about to be hit by a heat wave that’s probably playing a role.

It’s clearly the most usable computer I’ve tested. I’m cautiously optimistic this will work for me as well.

asus389

AshX What browser are you using on the M1 or M2 touchbar models that feel OK to you? I've done OK on 13 inch macbook pros also, but the current browsers seem to induce eye strain (especially safari) even though the rest of the OS and apps are more or less fine for me.

Donux

concernedcoder Thanks for sharing this. Devices that I have personally used also confirms to your observations. Would you say that whatever you plug into those problematic macbook airs, the strain comes out of known to be good monitors too ? For example you wrote you had MSI VA 27" 1440p 144hz screen, is this becomes problematic when you plug your macbook air ? And then what about your macbook pro m1 13 inch, does it work well without strain on this monitor ?

concernedcoder

Donux No issues on whatever device is plugged into my VA 27" screen.

@AshX That's good to know. Hope it buys you some time.

Aquila

Hello what's the exact model 27" 1440p MSI? Thx

concernedcoder

Aquila hi

27" MSI Optix MAG272CQR

Donux

I personally find it suspicious that folks do not say let say MacBook air is automatically bad on external monitor, rather discussion is more about the panel, than graphics pipeline. This is very different experience to mine. I guess will need to keep on investigating, but then if Air is bad for me even on external monitor (Similar thread was on Mac rumours, people said it is bad equally on external and panel for most folks), then there is no point in trying something new. I wish we had more feedback samples on Mac mini M4 too.

AshX

There is too much speculation. We already have established methods of testing devices, especially the Mac computers.

Capture card
Slow motion camera attached to microscope
Regular slow motion camera or camera with manual shutter speed to identify PWM

Stillcolor and BetterDisplay allow for the disabling of GPU dithering on internal and external screens. It’s easy enough to do an A/B to identify dithering or flicker of other types. I have not posted an update because I have not yet been able to test.

Regarding the MacBook Air display pipeline this should be easy to determine. It’s highly unlikely the Airs are doing something different unless the TCON is different. You can identify the TCON using a terminal command.

Each version of MacOS may or may not include changes to ColorSync rendering. That can be determined through the developer notes on Apple’s website. It can also be confirmed by comparing OS versions on the same or similar devices using the aforementioned techniques.

Then you also have to take into account personal health and neurological sensitivities. But that should come last after sources of flicker: PWM, dithering (temporal and spatial), and TCON FRC are identified empirically through testing. We can also calculate the specific frequency and amount of dithering once identified. If sources of flicker are ruled out then it is likely a color and light based problem, which I imagine would be easier to manage.

Identifying flicker is not a big mystery like understanding how it is happening within MacOS and the hardware.

Donux

AshX TCON is per display I think. But whatever. its not like someone in this forum will fix it at hardware level, only possible to detect and identify good units. And m2 pro 13 is a good choice, except that these older screens all have problems with Sonoma and newer versions. Those 14 inchers have some harmonous dance doing on, and apple didn't bother perfecting older models. This is based on that thread "... I am testing as many MacBooks....".

AshX

Donux

My M2 MBP 13” Touchbar has the same TCON as the 14” MBP M1 (confirmed via terminal code): "AppleParadeDP855TCON" so there is at least some consistency.

I’m assuming the Sonoma complaints are anecdotal or is there some sort of testing that indicates problems? Generally devices are safe 2 generations out from what they shipped on.

I have yet to see anyone perform any tests and post them here (please correct me if I’m wrong) with the M4 Pro 14” or 16” so it’s hard to tell what is driving the limited success a few users here are having with them. I’d love to know more so those of you using those computers could do us all a great service by doing some good testing.

I will not personally make a determination on the 13” myself until I can do proper testing and identify what’s going on.

Donux

AshX slow mo test I would do once I will upgrade to iphone or Samsung, did not do that, still on Xiaomi which was great smart ball for me. I drop it frequently, open bottles with it, and have zero emotion, because it was as cheap as hell. Yet, surprisingly after so many years, this cheap phone has amazing battery. And I can play football with it, instead of baby sitting it will fancy shmancy covers, insurances and other BS.

Back to TCON, could you share command, I will see what is TCON on air M2. This is just to attempt to confirm my bias that airs have very different pipeline than pro models. Also, I guess you agree that TCON has zero play if you plug a monitor, since monitor has its own TCON. Yet, air M2 butchered my BenQ pd2705q so badly that after initial excitement of getting new monitor I was like zombie with panic attacks in the public 🙂 Win, Linux was ok. Just to add, the same was with Zenscreen, although this screen is not good quality overall, dithering feels with win, Linux too. But with M2 air, it is worst of all. Eyes expand, sharp sensation, typical flicker response.