Daylight DC-1. The answer we need .... but not the price. No PWM tablet.

d_balon

randomboolean you're cheating the system … in a good way XD!! Just joking. Thank you for your replies btw. What you're doing with the iPhone screen is extremely smart. I don't have the skills to do that. Keep on keeping on friend 🙂

randomboolean

d_balon Haha yeah I've picked this up randomly from someone here on the forum and it worked! But that's what we are all doing here - cheating the system haha

d_balon

randomboolean Last thing, you should post your phone on YouTube. I would love to see how it works after the INCELL LCD installation overall.

randomboolean

d_balon never done this before, but I might 😃 I'm better at writing than talking, but I could at least showing how it looks like. Thanks for being my 1st subscriber without even having a channel yet haha

mirrormystic

I guess you can just get a kindle then?

d_balon

mirrormystic No android 🙁

randomboolean

mirrormystic I wish it were that easy even with E Ink. 🙁 It works for most, but not everyone, unfortunately. Back in 2018 I thought an E Ink monitor would be a 100% guaranteed solution I could use for life without any issues. But that was not the case. The E Ink monitor(only when turned on) strained my eyes even when I was not actively looking at it. It was actually worse than some of the worst LCDs I have tried.

Good LCDs have been much easier on my eyes and more adaptable than external E Ink monitors. I still have no idea why that is but I know I am not alone. I could not use some E Ink e-readers either. With those the issue is usually contrast, coatings, or glass layers. You know, just casual eye issues.

As for E Ink monitors, some people report they cannot use ones with Boox Super Refresh. That suggests there may be something going on, possibly flickering. I have done some digging using AI tools and deep research prompts but could not find any credible papers or technical resources to back this up. The only thing that shows up is a vague theory about micro flicker due to voltage, but nothing that proves it. So take that with caution and definitely do not quote me on it.

I am very sensitive to full screen redraws. Even on otherwise very good Windows setups using remote desktop software, the moment the screen redraws fully it becomes uncomfortable. This is similar to how E Ink works by flipping the whole screen at once. Unless the redraw rate is slowed to around 5 frames per second or less, I feel it quite strongly. I also could not use CRTs at 60 hertz. I needed 85 or ideally over 100. These work differently but the one thing in common is there is something flickering full screen 60 times per second.

When E Ink is turned off but still shows static text, I still feel some strain. Not as bad as during refresh, but definitely noticeable. It feels more like the usual eye sensitivity, probably caused by contrast, coating, or just how the surface interacts with lighting. Nothing like flicker. This issue is quite common though, not even by ledstrainers.

Luckily, Eink works well for many people here on the forum and I am genuinely glad it does. Definitely worth trying. Just do not be surprised if someone reading this still experiences discomfort. It might be a general eye issue, or it could be related to the way E Ink refreshes. Or a mix of both.

d_balon

randomboolean That's such a shame E-Ink didn't work for you. Obviously, Bigme HiBreak Pro is the phone I believe many will buy because of no flicker. For me, I wouldn't buy it unless it was 60FPS + color. Video link in case anyone wants to know more about the phone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9JzcIDx15I

randomboolean

Just found a review from someone with multiple neurological issues similar to ours – they’ve used monitors like the Dasung too. So this device might actually work for some people. The downside is the price and spec combo, which isn’t the strongest compared to similar tablets.

They mention a 30-day return policy, but it’s unclear whether there’s a restocking fee. I’ve reached out to clarify that.

Here’s the review link: https://www.reddit.com/r/eink/comments/1h2ciig/ama_about_my_dc1_daylight_computer/

randomboolean

randomboolean Just got a reply regarding dithering and FRC – the Daylight DC-1 doesn’t use either, which is a great start. As always, it’s only part of the story. Sales Support has been excellent – very fast and helpful. What stood out to me was that they used the microscope technique to compare E Ink with their RLCD epaper. Youtube link below. No flicker was observed, but that should be taken with a grain of salt – it could still come down to other factors like internal components or even screen coating. Needs to be tested personally, case by case.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful question—and for your interest in the DC-1! It’s wonderful to hear from someone who’s just as passionate about reducing eye strain.

To answer you: the DC-1’s LivePaper display doesnot use hardware or software dithering, and the panel doesnot rely on FRC at the LCD level. You’re absolutely right that both of these are common culprits when it comes to eye strain, so we’ve been very intentional about avoiding them.

Alongside our flicker-free, PWM-free backlight, this helps ensure a more comfortable, natural viewing experience. You can also checkout this technical review if you want to dive deeper :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v1ZZT5bVNA

If you have any more questions—technical or otherwise—I’d be happy to dive into them with you. Thanks again for reaching out!

Warm regards,
Jesse

randomboolean

randomboolean I received another reply, and for my specific 'LEDstrain' case, there are a few positive signs that make this worth testing. I have no previous experience with RLCD, so I’m not expecting it to be a miracle solution (E-ink was supposed to be the answer, but it turned out to be worse for me than LCD).

The reply from Daylight team:

To your first question: the DC-1’s LivePaper display does not apply heavy sharpening or aggressive post-processing that could introduce flicker or artifacts. We’ve been very intentional about keeping the image as natural and stable as possible, precisely to avoid triggering discomfort for folks who are sensitive.

Regarding our 30-day return policy, it truly is a no-questions-asked full refund, provided the device is returned in good condition (not damaged beyond normal use). We completely understand that with something as personal as visual comfort, the only real way to know is to try it yourself. So you’re absolutely welcome to use it for a few hours (or days) to see how it feels, and if it’s not the right fit, return it for a full refund.

Thanks again for all your great questions. If there’s anything else—technical or otherwise—I’m here and happy to dive in.

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

randomboolean

Note that the current DC-1 OS still has MediaTek MiraVision image processing (accidentally) enabled.

You can verify this in SetEdit. HDR enhancement, super resolution, picture quality enhancement, etc. are still set to "supported / don't bypass" instead of "unsupported / bypass".

I'm currently talking with the team about disabling this, because it means there's currently at least one source of image processing in the OS they hadn't realized yet.

The good news is even if the tablet is not perfect right now, I personally know that the team understands why a clean signal is important and wants to prioritize that even more in the future — I'd say that Daylight is far more likely to keep moving in this direction, compared to other RLCD companies which feel less "in touch" with our community.

Also, I confirmed with the team that there are two revisions of the DC-1 with different LCD panels. Let's call them 1.0 and 1.5.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any way to find out the revision within the tablet's OS, but one way to tell is that the white ring at the very end of the tablet's bezel is glossy plastic on 1.0 and matte plastic on 1.5.

I've actually tried both revisions in person.

1.0 units I tried give me eyestrain pretty quickly and scrolling made me dizzy.

However, 1.5 units are actually quite usable — no immediate eyestrain, and scrolling is fine!

Keep this in mind when buying a DC-1. I don't know if they still ship out remaining 1.0 stock, but if you see a glossy plastic ring at the edge of your tablet instead of matte, expect eyestrain… lol!

Only the 1.5 revision is usable for me. In addition, I found tweaks that make it good enough to use for up to 3-4 hours —

Locking my DC-1's FPS to 60 with SetEdit, disabling HW overlays, disabling HDR with the ADB trick shared on a different thread here, setting Color Filter to monochromacy, and enabling Extra Dim (in order for the TN screen's white color to reflect the same way as the gray colors instead of reflecting differently, essentially the same easy-to-work-around characteristic I've observed on all other TN displays).

These tweaks visibly improved the screen for me.

So far, DC-1 is not perfect, and possibly not as suitable for "someone's only device they rely on for entire days of use" as my other good setups are. However, even if it isn't perfect, the 1.5 revision is still generally pretty usable for me after my tweaks --- and what it gets right is that it's the most usable device I've tested that is using a fully hardware accelerated graphics pipeline (compared to my other "good setups", which require a GPU to be disabled to achieve comfort).

Note that my good experience only applies to the 1.5 revision. The 1.0 revision was strainy (I tested it earlier at a demo event before getting my 1.5).

For reference, the DC-1's panel is a TN RLCD. Not IPS! It is TN because colors invert at extreme angles. This info hasn't been stated anywhere by any other DC-1 user yet, so I figured I'll put it out there.

Once I convince Daylight to disable MiraVision, it will be interesting to see if screen comfort improves further. I have a feeling that it's responsible for the slight discomfort / "usable but not perfect" feeling I still experience on my 1.5 unit

randomboolean

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs As always deep and solid research by you, thanks for the detailed research!

Companies that collaborate at the level you mentioned are the lowest-hanging fruit I can think of when it comes to new tech development.

By the way, any theories on the actual difference between 1.0 and 1.5? Is it just the panels, or does it involve the hardware, software, and drivers on the tablets as well? For instance, if you swapped the panels between the two versions, would 1.5 work the same as 1.0 on the other tablet, and vice versa?

And if it’s just the panel itself, any insight into the difference at that level? What's the difference at panel level? Is it uncomfortable only when you scroll or at all times? Could it be coating+LCD combo? Have you spoken with the company about it or done any research on it?

aliamrs099

Glad this been adressed as I thought I'm crazy. It's now clear some devices can be harmful due to Android settings.

randomboolean

@DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs Hi! This Android issue tracker reported by @Intet (https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/430486442) has been getting quite a bit of attention. But in order for it to move forward, as @Intet mentioned, it would really require real-world examples – things like ADB commands, custom ROMs, or something in between.

I thought of you, since you’ve managed to disable most of the things that need to be turned off on the Daylight device. I know we’re not completely sure this covers everything, but if we wait until we’re fully certain, we’ll never post anything as we'll never be 100% sure. So I thought, let’s just take one step at a time – start with what we already have, share the simple changes (very actionable like HDR thingie), and then build from there. And truthfully, we already have quite a few things worth sharing.

Do you happen to remember exactly what you disabled via ADB? Or do you still have your config file (I can’t remember the name) that gets updated on your PC when you change things using SetEdit? Even a list of the settings that got the device close to comfortable for you could really help. If some of these end up being implemented under accessibility, it could make it much easier for others to test and tweak things without needing to use ADB or root their phones. That alone would already be a huge step forward.

Of course this tracker doesn't cover the panel hardware itself, which is fair enough. It's easier to tackle one part at a time.

You’ve been incredibly creative with your setups and hardware tweaks (the Linux workaround, Android tablet, Raspberry Pi setups) and we’d really appreciate your input on this too. Thanks so much!

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

randomboolean

to disable hdr with adb i simply followed the exact same steps in this guide: https://ledstrain.org/d/3423-success-in-disabling-temporal-dither-how-to

the other tweaks i did was change min_refresh_rate and peak_refresh_rate both to 60 in the system table in setedit

make sure "smooth display" is off in display settings before making the setedit changes. create the keys if they don't exist. verify with "show refresh rate" in developer options that it's locked to 60

then, in developer options, set color filter to "monochromacy" and then check the box for disable HW overlays (important! makes an immediately noticeable difference, more so than other android devices)

note that disable HW overlays resets whenever the tablet is fully shut down or runs out of battery. so you'll need to check the box to disable overlays in again in these cases

anyway, those are the exact tweaks i used to make my DC-1 usable

to use my DC-1 as a monitor, to connect to a windows computer with lossless quality (e.g. for coding where i want 100% crisp text) i use bVNC on the DC-1 and TightVNC Server on the PC

for other use cases where i either want maximum performance or to smoothly connect to a Mac, i use NoMachine Client on DC-1 and NoMachine Server on the host PC or Mac

both bVNC and NoMachine Client work great for me on the DC-1 and turn the device into a quite usable monitor

(btw, you can also mess around with "invert colors" or "extra dim" in accessibility settings to see if you prefer the screen with one of them on or not. these are not required though and i alternate between using these two and not using them depending on time of day, etc.)

JTL

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs (replace the equal signs with UNDERSCORES! this forum doesn't let me type underscores for some reason)

Unable to reproduce here. I've gone ahead and corrected your post.

randomboolean

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs Appreciate it! I'm very keen on testing this after my trip.

Michalten

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs and hows your daylight? I just ordered mine and im unsure about this purchase. did they solve miravision problem? if yes is it non eyestraining now?

Michalten

DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs

lenovo legion 5 15ACH6H 165hz panel (very good gaming notebook btw - but u need to clean dust from fan regularly if u dont u will fry motherboard in a two years time, i did that, thank god I bought extended warranty) - in discrete mode zero eyestrain can use no limit - in hybrid mode with integrated graphics amd instant eyestrain, ditherig doesnt help.

Poco x3 pro with tianma screen - on stock android 11 a very subtle almost non exisiting and by non existing i mean 1% existing I cant feel it when i dont focus on it (when compared to lenovo screen as its perfect) eyestrain can use no limit too.

Could you help me identify why those two devices doesnt give me any eyestrain? as i tried a lot of new phones, notebooks, few monitors with rtx 3060 in pc and it doesnt work. i just want to know why these screens are so good for me.

what things when can we check that are known culprits and maybe less known culprits for eyestrain? I think these devices are very good benchmarks.

I was thinking about connection type. I wonder what type of connection to the graphic cards internally uses this notebook and maybe thats one of the culprits? I had an old tv which had very slow smart inside and could only play 720p youtube videos, but that tv was eyestrain free. then i bought quite few dongle from xiaomi an google home to make it smart tv but everyone gave instant hard piercing eyestrain, I wonder if that was due to the software dithering (i think those devices introduce that) or maybe thats the hdmi standard which messes with that? i read somwhere that people solved the eystrain with dongles by putting the signal through old vga adapter which cannot dither and plugging it into old vga sockets in tv. so dongle hdmi > vga adapter > tv

I wonder if that's not the same with pc monitors that the hdmi can be one of the culprits for eyestrain? Gemini says that my internal monitor uses some kind of eDP (kind of display port) inside (i was wondering maybe its hallucinating and theres an analog connection of some sort?) and it suggests that as my laptop only has hdmi output I can use usb c gen 2 ports in my notebook which should do 1.4 display port. I yet need to find non eyestrain monitor to test that and thats hard.

So thats one of my observation wha ist every other thing you think of to check?

d_balon

randomboolean you should make a YouTube video about your findings + best settings for the DC-1.

randomboolean

d_balon It's not me (yet), it's @DisplaysShouldNotBeTVs who owns it and is super creative with the settings and stuff. I'm planning to have one, but a bit later this year.