So, there was a long saga and I ditched that XBox One. But it turns out that because I was in the beta program I had just gotten an update earlier than everyone else. As of the October update last week, my new unit is also flickering. I'm going to use a USB drive and downflash it to the August update... and then lock it to prevent further updates. Don't know how long that will hold me, since eventually it will require updating to play online games due to security patches. Fingers crossed.
XBox One
hpst I agree. They probably updated the video drivers, turned on ... something ... which made it bad. Some games have always done the same thing, and hurt more to play than other games. Not at all sure why/how. I wish I had the wherewithal (I would have, 20 years ago) to get a dev unit, decompile the driver stack, and figure it out.
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Gurm Where do we go from here? I am a firm believer its the same root technical cause behind all the strain for the majority of us. Whether that is dithering or whatever it is likely the same thing whether we are talking computers, phones, consoles etc. Any idea how to hire someone to determine what this is? I am pretty sure I have seen your name in the Apple thread that is 10 years old so know you've bee suffering this for a long time...we need to take some concrete action.
hpst I really wish I knew. Drivers are complicated, Intel claims they found NOTHING when they analyzed their drivers from a known good to known bad config. I don't buy that - clearly something is very different and we know roughly when it happened. That might be a place to start. Find a known good and known bad config. The problem is that this is cropping up in so many different ways - drivers for some, chip iterations for others, VBIOS settings for others, and options for another group.
On my phone (HTC One m8, Verizon), updating the "firmware" (not really firmware on an android device) from the version that shipped with Android 5.02 (Lollipop) to the one that supports Android 6 (Marshmallow) was what did it - this isn't really firmware in the traditional sense, but rather it's the low-level drivers for the hardware. Even just puttering around the bootloader screens hurt after that update. Sunspark found that on some versions of the device there was an alternate driver set for the Harman/Kardon equipped models that made his ok to look at. That didn't work for me. But in that case it was CLEARLY the low-level display drivers that broke the device for me. No idea how to disassemble those, but I have both sets. HTC cannot be reached for comment, but there are a ton of hackers out there...
On Macs it is clearly the screen - my 2011 Core i5 Macbook Pro was fine until I sent it to Apple to get the screen assembly replaced. It came back hurting my eyes. Some Macs have "magic" screen/chip combos (early 2013 has a GeForce 6xx and are great, late 2013 has a GeForce 7xx and isn't). Apple not only doesn't care - on their forums their moderators mocked us openly and when we complained about that WE got banned. Apple doesn't give two shits.
On nVidia cards it's the vBIOS - MSI 970's are fine, but other newer versions aren't. 960 and 950, being newer chips, usually aren't. Will nVidia tell us what they changed? Who knows?
On ATI we're pretty sure it's drivers, when we used to be able to turn off dithering it was ok. But that was a while ago, and it was for an older version of the card, so who knows? It could be vBIOS or hardware for them too. AMD is unlikely to listen to us, but I guess we could ask.
Windows 10 introduced compositing. It's ABSOLUTELY the support for composition layers that makes it hurt, since the initial release did not, and all versions right up until they introduced that support didn't. Newest version (1807) is better than previous versions were, I can use it for 15-20 minutes without trouble, but I can use 15xx all day with the same hardware. I submitted a bug report to MS. No response.
On my XBox One, Destiny 1 is fine. Destiny 2 hurts. I got used to whatever they were doing, and could play for an hour without issues, until the latest update from MS/Bungie. Now it hurts again. If I put in Destiny 1 it is fine, no issues at all. Clearly there's some new video mode they are using. Some games use it, most don't. Will Bungie tell us what that is? Probably not.
Where am I going with this? I don't know. I have no idea how to proceed, but we're rapidly approaching a day when I can't work or make a living and it scares me.
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Gurm I hear you. I have been out of work for a long time due to medical crap and disability. I have gotten a once in a lifetime offer for some remote work and I HAVE to be able to spend time in front of a computer or I lose this last chance. I also can't do much else for entertainment so if I can no longer be in front of screens all day I am done with life.
Interesting that you mentioned compositing. I use linux exclusively now but am not good at it. It is possible to run a DE without a compositor right? Or would the DE be unusable? Have you ever turned compositing off in linux and seen if it helps since it being ON in Windows 10 caused trouble? That's one factor I have never tried in a controlled setting like PWM/backlighting type/antialiasing etc.
hpst I don't know that they are equivalent. Windows has something called "composition spaces" which basically allow hardware (such as the surface puck, or other gizmos) to interact with the display at the driver level, basically acting on output and doing overlays and such. That's what they introduced that hurts to look at. (Mind you, it's very clever - the surface puck is pretty neat, and having the ability for the pen to work in its own space and not just be an "imitation mouse" is really forward-thinking... the implementation just hurts to look at!)
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Gurm Ah ok so not the same thing as window manager compositing. My only safe computer is a 13yo 32bit toshiba running 32bit Xubuntu 16.04 that I am afraid to touch or update. I have an iPad 2 from 2012 stuck on iOS9 (which may be a blessing since higher versions seem to bother most people) but it crashes all the time and can't handle most webpages without freezing since there is no ad/script blocking possible on iOS9. My 2013 Nokia Windows Phone is fine as well but is deprecated and has no apps so isn't ideal.
I just cannot find newer HW that works and this stuff is too old to function much longer. I just want to run linux of any flavor or DE on decent laptop and desktop hardware. I don't care what brand or anything anymore...just as long as its pain free and capable. I don't use a phone long enough each day to be bothered by it and can deal with modern Android or iOS for simple phone tasks, so while that would be nice to solve too its not as important as a computer which is literally needed for me to stay alive at this point.
All the hopeful threads I find about linux like this one fizzled out https://ledstrain.org/d/26-on-arch-linux-xfce-eye-strain-problem-is-gone-unsure/13 and there is just no consistently safe combo I have seen posted. I have tried changing video drivers in GRUB as some suggested in the intel forums but that always just broke the DE.
*Also I remember the intel forum thread where the sent TUL or whoever the Thinkpad and I saw people say they didn't test for dithering...so we still really need to find a way to do that.
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JTL Ah yeah the German lab...we need to figure out how to contact them and ask. I bet intel has some agreement with them though and they'd not release results to us. Do you think its worth making up a post for Hacker News and trying there? You know how that place works where IF you can get front page attention things often morph into arguments about related things and the original issue never gets solved or focused on, and I fear it would devolve into long threads where people insist its just PWM or just posture etc. But I don't know where else to possible find people who might be able to help. Reddit is a joke and useless. Intel shut us down in their forum as you know. Unless you are willing to take this on full time if we can crowdfund you I don't know how else to get any progress....it's been years and years with no eurekas. I find all sorts of people asking similar questions online going back many years, but they never get anything but the usual unhelpful responses and no solutions. Like this for example https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/eye-strain-from-certain-video-modes-drivers.53468/
hpst Do you think its worth making up a post for Hacker News and trying there? You know how that place works where IF you can get front page attention things often morph into arguments about related things and the original issue never gets solved or focused on, and I fear it would devolve into long threads where people insist its just PWM or just posture etc
Might be worth a try and could possibly raise awareness but I fear the latter (arguments and fixation about unrelated things) could happen.
hpst Unless you are willing to take this on full time if we can crowdfund you I don't know how else to get any progress....it's been years and years with no eurekas.
I'd rather not commit to anything at the moment but be rest assured even though I am very busy due to my own personal life and such, it's not a lack of interest preventing me from working on this.
hpst I find all sorts of people asking similar questions online going back many years, but they never get anything but the usual unhelpful responses and no solutions. Like this for example https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/eye-strain-from-certain-video-modes-drivers.53468/
On one hand with the knowledge of PWM and blue light being common I feel issues like the ones we talk about are less obscure then they used to be. Does that make the end of the story? Not at all. More work needs to be done and there are still many things we aren't certain about.
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JTL but I fear the latter (arguments and fixation about unrelated things) could happen.
I am positive it would based on years of reading there, and am frankly just so desperate I am revisiting all the bad ideas I have ever had. It's a constant cycle of desperate motivation, trying everything again, failing, being more depressed for a while, then repeat. Every time I think I even find a workaround something comes up to burst that bubble. We need to find someone to supplement your ideas or who can work on this more regularly. I just don't know where to find them.
hpst (e.g: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16087871)
They seem unaware that the original issue only affect Macbooks made between circa. 2008-2010...
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JTL Yeah every thread I have seen there talking about eye strain in some manner is already off the rails before I notice and could comment and bring up our ideas. Since stuff has a very short lifespan of discussion there unless you are in at the start and get votes there is zero chance of guiding the discussion at all.