My possible solution, treatment and progress so far
jasonpicard Not a chance. It flickers like a son-of-a-gun (especially at the 0% brightness I keep it at!) The thing is though, since it's a CCFL backlit, the "off" part of the duty-cycle still has a bit of "glow" from the fluorescent lamp inside, so it probably looks "better" to the ol' brain.
Flicker free is not the solution. I've bought several displays, some with PWM and some without any PWM. I still get headaches. I will make a post about that.
Eye convergence excess or insufficiency seem to be my problem. I can feel some pain in my head and around the eyes, as if MUSCLES are involved.
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Alexandre Eye convergence excess or insufficiency seem to be my problem. I can feel some pain in my head and around the eyes, as if MUSCLES are involved.
Muscles around the eyes, and in the face and head ARE involved with anything you focus on but that doesn't mean you have an eye defect. My symptoms are tightness around back of head and then in face/eyes leading to headache. The same muscles you feel if you squint and lean forward to look at something small etc.
My theory is the constant dithering flickering is causing the muscles to get exhuasted having to constantly refocus and try to lock on to the continual movement in the same way low freq PWM really bothers some people but dithering is worse because its more random and in the images themselves.
A lot of people here are confusing eyestrain with CVS and overuse etc. Dry eyes, red eyes, things like this with no muscular issues are not eyestrain in my opinion but rather CVS or overuse etc and you can get them reading paper too long but most people don't spend 12 hours a day reading books. If you don't blink enough or have dry eyes for other reasons then staring at a bright light is going to bother you as well. Some of us probably have both types of issues. Some of us might have photosensitive neurological issues. But I think the people following the "convergence" path are going to be disappointed long term. You can find out instantly if this is your issue by getting an eye exam and prism glasses to correct that. If that's your true problem your "strain" or whatever will be instantly gone. Then you could work on therapy (which takes a year or more often) to work on physically correcting it and not needing the glasses.
hpst I agree that PWN is a read herring (at least in my case). In the "eye doctors" thread I wrote about how a Dell U2713H I looked into at work today has given me a horrible headache for over 3 hours (and counting), and I looked at it for less than 5 minutes.
This colleague's monitor has given me horrible grief since 2014, and I have to avoid it like kryptonite. I'm not sure how many more reminders I need that it isn't going to work out. It's more of me trying to look "normal" in front of everybody, as I'm sure nobody believes my issue is even real (since they look at it 8 hours a day, every day, with no issue).
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hpst I seem to have the same disturbs as you. And I agree on dividing between CVS and this other disruptive thing we are suffering from. As said multiple times, I get strain almost instantaneously in front of a "bad" device. It is definitely not overuse. And I do not even need to "converge" and focus my eyes anywhere, because simply staring at a desktop without reading anything bothers me. It looks like a strong allergic reaction. And the effects may take days to fade. In my case I am also quite sensitive to non-incandescent lightning, although I find very tricky to say what is worse between LED and fluorescent light. It seems to be very dependent on the lamp/situation every time.
As to the convergence matter, I know my eyes are not "perfect". However, almost 15 years ago I was shown some convergence exercises by a very good optometrist. I quickly improved a lot. 4 years ago I attended a 2 day vision therapy session by Leo Angart I posted about months ago (https://www.vision-training.com/e/index.html). We were about 20 people of any age. Some guys had incredibly thick glasses and huge vision problems, like they could not even see me clearly from a meter without spectacles. After a few hours introduction, we did exercises similar to the ones I was shown by that optometrist 15 years ago. As Mr. Angart had anticipated before beginning the training, many of those people had to go on the same day to a pharmacy buy cheap glasses with reduced diopters. They could not use theirs anymore. They and I who witnessed that could not literally believe our eyes. Some people had to buy again a new pair of glasses after the second day, which was fully focused on training. Now, here comes my point. I went to that therapy session for curiosity, despair - given no eye doctor could figure out my problem - and to explicitly inquire about my computer-related eyestrain. I asked everyone around me and none of those guys, young or old, who came in with glasses thick like a bottle on the first day and with huge convergence issues, had any eyestrain from computer besides the CVS symptoms hpst mentioned (overuse etc. etc.). Mr. Angart suggested blue light was my issue and told me LED screens were not known to flicker like CRTs (BenQ had just come out with flicker-free LED monitors though!). How come I was the one in sorta better eye shape there, but the only one who would go bedridden after seconds of modern device usage? That is another reason why I believe convergence exercises are great, but are not going to solve my problems ever.
It has been awful for me the last couple of weeks. I kept my phone off for 5 days but now my MacBook Air is driving me crazy too. For some reasons some updates passed thru although only at Office level, and I cannot explain why they would affect my display. I am hoping I am just over-worrying. I noticed in the past that a sinus attack or a flu which I just did affect my eyes, but I feel I am just finding excuses. It is the device again.
I have been long enough but since this thread is about treatments, I would like to add a couple of things. I have been sleeping little, like 3-4 hours a night for long, even if I use UVEX goggles while working on my laptop at night and run f.lux at 4600 K during the day and 1900 K from sunset. The 5 days I did not use my laptop while on holiday I could sleep properly. The day before yesterday I took two pills of 50 mg diphenhydramine hydrochloride and I could sleep. I woke up a bit stoned but the twitching of the muscles around my eyes was greatly reduced and using my laptop resulted less harsh. Today I am back to awful symptoms. What does that mean? Is it neurological?
Finally, in the last few weeks I have been doing acupuncture treatments to cure headache, sinus inflammation and insomnia. I did not specifically mention eyestrain to the therapist. Well, I do not know if the recent worsening of my eyestrain could be ascribable to that, but I doubt. Has anyone tried acupuncture against eyestrain?
AGI
I find many similarities to what you described. I also thought that it could be a kind of allergy as it has the same effect - I immediately feel worse and may require some time to recover. It only doesn't make sense to be allergic to something that isn't material and have direct contact with our body.
I also used to sleep better in the past and now spend an hour laying before falling asleep and then wake up multiple times at night only to force myself to sleep further. Actually I don't like sleeping anymore due to it being a tiring process
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andc I also used to sleep better in the past and now spend an hour laying before falling asleep
While I don't believe for a second blue light causes eyestrain based on the science...it DOES interfere with your sleep cycles being exposed to it after dark by confusing hormones etc. If you haven't explored glasses/screen protectors like Reticare etc for that particular issue..or altering your habits to stay off screens after dark (terribly inconvenient I know...esp in Winter and at high latitudes), then it's worth a go for the sleep issue. It's an open question as to whether software like F.lux and Redshift etc, or built in "low blue light" modes on some displays, actually reduce blue light at all or significantly, or are just playing tinting games.
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hpst Look at the spectrometer testing here: https://techsensitive.com/night-light-for-windows-10-review/
But I think your point still stands. I don't remember anyone complaining about blue light from CRTs or early non LED backlit LCD monitors and I feel the color tinting is a "workaround" that distorts colors compared to a proper solution.
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hpst I too think blue light is not the worst guy out there. It is probably producing some long term effect, besides disturbing sleep, but it is not responsible for the immediate eyestrain that many of us feel in front of "bad" devices. However, I am bothered by some type of lightning as well, and that cannot be dithering. I suspect flickering rather than blue light.
Are you struggling only with displays?
On a different note, I withdraw my desperate speculation that acupuncture could have worsen my situation. I went in yesterday and I showed the osteopath the twitching of my eyes' muscles. Post-treatment I had relaxed and only around the left eye I could feel some tension. I stayed 16 hours without electronics and felt almost healed. Then I messed around for a couple of hours with a DELL Latitude E5570 mounting an Intel (R) HD Graphics 530 and on Windows 7, and to my surprise I survived very well without even adjusting the brightness and reducing the display resolution. Finally I turned my MacBook Air on, and muscle twitching / neck tension began within minutes :-(
I read some of you felt eyestrain after updating their browser. Question: could you ascertain the strain came only from the app which you updated? I am considering uninstalling and reinstalling Office, which has been my only (undesired) recent update. I am also worried it could be the screen, as it went black a couple of times within seconds. How long are LED displays supposed to live for and what do they typically die of? Thanks.
AGI How long are LED displays supposed to live for and what do they typically die of?
I believe the data on LED backlit failure rates doesn't really exist because they are too new (Only came in the market about 2008-2010)
I have an old Dell CCFL monitor from 2005, and other then but dim due to age it still works fine.
Alexandre I agree that even if the monitor is flicker free I still get pain. I can't find a screen for the life of me that doesn't give me pain except my Yotaphone 2 that I use.
I have a strange feeling that even if there's no PWM, there's some other sort of flicker that is problematic, or machines that we think have no PWM actually have it, but it's very high, not perceived by eyes, but still messing with us.
I initially thought it would be dithering, but it doesn't make sense in my current case. I have a gut feeling that the white light from my current device is problematic, as if you were staring at ugly lamp light. It seems to happen instantly and, even from distance, so I think dithering wouldn't even be visible if I can't discrimine series of pixels from around a meter on a 12.5" device. And even then - dithering shouldn't be an instant shock, but something I have to focus on for a while.
It looks to me that this problem is some sort of over-sensitivity, where we "feel" the original digital nature of the devices when it's expected to be perceived as analog, ie. something like series of images instead of fluid movie.
andc The few "flicker-free" monitors I tested at home don't have PWM but show a small DC ripple on the oscilloscope. So do all of the LED bulbs I have. It seems it is very difficult for manufacturers to produce a perfect constant light when a device is powered by AC.
The most flicker-free LED bulb I have flickers at just 0.03%, 100 Hz, yet it hurts after while, and blocking the blue light, verified with a spectrometer, won't help. I'm out of ideas. But the flicker is there.
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hpst Incandescents, 100 Hz:
Osram 60W bulb: ~20% flicker
Osram 40W bulb: ~25% flicker
Osram 25W bulb: ~40% flicker
Unknown 40W candle bulb: ~40% flicker
All independent of the type of lamp they're put into. But whether I get symptoms or not from incandescents depends on the lamp. I don't know why yet. Some lamps I have are not usable.
Rough flicker estimates, because my PC died and I only have my handheld flicker meter currently.
Some more precise IKEA LED bulb measurements here: https://ledstrain.org/d/106-flicker-free-led-lights/81
I bought some flourescents, too, but can't test them currently without an x86 PC. The handheld flicker meter tells me there's lots of flicker going on with those at 100 Hz and also above 20 KHz. Also they are better for my eyes than the LED bulbs, but still not very comfortable.
Edit: Flourescent results:
Osram Dulux Stick 900lm: ~35% 100 Hz flicker + ~27% 60-80 kHz flicker
KM It's all very confusing because in every possible class or factor I personally have an exception that prevents me from saying "LED is bad" or "CCFL is good" or "PWM is bad" etc. So I cannot accept ideas like "LED is 'harsher' and less smooth etc" as an explanation since some LED applicaitons are fine for me. I am desperately hoping that dithering is a solution on screens but that doesn't really apply to light bulbs so makes me less hopeful.
hpst I agree it is very confusing. For the measurements I did a few minutes ago I got some eye strain symptoms from the 25W incandescent bulb. I looked into the light for only 10 seconds and now 20 minutes later still have strained eyes. When I put the same bulb into my ceiling lamp, no problems. There must be something I missed that has not been measured yet. But other than flicker or spectrum, I'm clueless. Matte or clear doesn't seem to matter here.
My testing lamp is this: https://m.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/art/10394129/
In fact all bulbs I ever tested in this lamp hurt more or less.
Maybe for future measurements I should try to use the ceiling lamp, which I'd need to create a portable setup for.
AGI read some of you felt eyestrain after updating their browser. Question: could you ascertain the strain came only from the app which you updated?
Yes absolutely - with the recent update to the Chrome browsers on PC. Gives me eye strain, as does the current Firefox. I rolled back Chrome to a previous version and everything feels "good" again.