1 year ago I switched back to the iPhone 11 and have never looked back.

Aquila

jordan I still love Mate 20.
Best LCD screen ever used.
It's still solid after 6 years

K-Moss

jordan Where is the evidence it dithers bad?

Worst screen you have ever used yet it works well for countless sensitive users.

jordan

K-Moss Well first P3 color on a phone LCD is always going to dither BUT there has been several people that recorded the dithering on reddit and the telegram group. There are also many negative posts about the iphone 11 as well as other apple lcds. Jen @ flickersense has data posted there of another lcd iphone dithering too. I am sure you have seen the negative posts during your cherry picking of good posts lol.

K-Moss

jordan Look, the vast majority of users can enjoy the iPhone 11 without any issues at all. This is true also for the vast majority of otherwise sensitive users.

Why then do you suppose you are one of the very few anywhere in the world to have difficulties with certain almost universally comfortable screens like the iPhone 11? In fact, not only does the iPhone 11 bother you, allegedly the symptoms are severe enough that you consider it one of the worst screens in existence.

So, is it the phone or is it you?

Blooey

jordan iPhone 11 is the absolute worst screen I have ever used. It dithers bad.

I had the same experience. I used the 11 for quite a while, assuming it was one of the lower modulating options in the lineup because everyone seemed to say it was. But once I ran my own tests, it became clear that the issue on mine looked much more like inversion bias being out of balance than strong FRC activity. That actually explains the mixed reports: inversion patterns can vary quite a bit from unit to unit, not just model to model, while dithering is generally consistent within a model line.
After that, I stopped trusting second-hand data and started testing everything myself. There is a surprising amount of misinformation out there.

jordan P3 color on a phone LCD is always going to dither

Just to get painfully nerdy, I agree that if a display supports P3 it often ships alongside 10-bit processing or FRC, but P3 itself is not the cause. P3 only defines the range of colors, the saturation, while bit depth defines how many steps exist within that range. The saturation depends on the LED spectrum and the color-filter design, not on brightness precision or dithering. HDR standards, on the other hand, typically do require higher bit depths.

jordan

K-Moss Obviously the ones tolerating it are primarily sensitive to PWM only. I've noticed you cherry pick devices that happen to work for you simply because they're LCD, ignoring evidence that doesn't fit your narrative.

I said it's the worst screen I've personally used - I never claimed my experience is universal. But there are numerous posts from others reporting identical issues. Apple forces temporal dithering on ALL their LCD devices, and many people report issues from them including concussion like symptoms.

And about the claim that the iPhone 11 has "little to no screen flicker"—it does have flicker, it's just pixel flicker from the temporal dithering, not PWM backlight flicker. Which is still an issue. How can it be good when what your looking at is never static?

You know what, let's turn this around: Why can't you use OLED? You're constantly posting about how terrible they are, yet I see tons of posts about people using them just fine. Let me throw your own question back at you, is it the phone, or is it you? Maybe you're just "one of the very few anywhere in the world" who can't handle OLEDs?

See how that works? We're all different. I'm sharing my own experience. Yes, my symptoms were severe even back with the iPhone 8+ and XR, I experienced instant severe dry eye, head pressure, unexplained anxiety, depression, OCD like symptoms, and hypersensitivity to stress. All of it vanished completely when I stopped using Apple's LCD devices. I was even trying a SSRI for some of those symptoms that was not needed at all. Ditching those screens gave me my clarity and happiness back, and I'm far from the only one reporting this.

You don't get to dismiss other people's experiences just because they don't match yours.

K-Moss

jordan Countless people cannot use OLED phones. The number in the world who can't use the iPhone 11 must be less than 20 individuals.

jordan

K-Moss Yeah, countless people can't use OLED.. that's why everything is going OLED, right? Lmao. And yeah, probably less than 20 when you're only acknowledging positive posts and pretending you didn't see all the negative ones.

Aquila

jordan An ancient proverb says: "When the wise man points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger"

ITwebs

I remember iPhone 11 is very comfortable with IOS 16 installed. But once it was updated to IOS 18 it becomes terribly straining. It becomes so unbearable. So I think temporal dithering is not a factor that can be neglected.

Aquila

ITwebs Absolutely. Triggers are hardware and software
I had problem In the past after a Windows 10 update, 1809 to 2004.
Nausea and Headache

K-Moss

Anyway, the Moto Edge 2025 dithers heavily. The Moto Edge 2024 doesn't dither at all. Both pieces of data from Nick at Android Central.

I find the Edge 2025 more comfortable than the 2024, including in low light situations. The Edge 2025 is a brighter display, so in theory should be less comfortable in lower light situations.

In theory, the Edge 2025 is supposed to exert more strain on the eyes due to dithering heavily. I went into testing it thinking it would surely be worse than the Edge 2024.

Therefore, this goes to show dithering doesn't necessarily worsen the comfort of a display. Someone else on this forum noted the same. They found in their case dithering improved comfort.

I just wanted to add that it really is impressive how Motorola refined the Edge 2024 into the Edge 2025.

Using the 2024 model, you feel it's a fantastically designed device that would be hard to improve.

Yet the Edge 2025 feels materially better in all respects. It's impressive what they managed in just 1 year of work. Yes, they're OLED, but you can't make an LCD phone that feels and functions like the Moto Edge 2025 or even Edge 2024. In the case of the 2025 model, it's a glorious piece of technology deserving far more appreciation that I've seen. I'm not intrinsically a fan of OLED, but the Edge 2025 feels so nice as a daily driver, like a fine watch but with infinitely more utility.

Takes a few minutes of using the Edge 2025 to know without any doubt every single aspect of it was carefully thought through and engineered for a superior user experience.

Yes, it dithers heavily according to Nick's microscope. Oh my, that means it must be like rubbing your eyes with sandpaper?

Not at all my experience.

Think about it. Why would the Moto engineers do a marvelous job with every aspect of the Edge 2025 and meanwhile equip it with a display known to be harsher on the eyes than the previous generation that didn't dither at all?

If anyone here claiming to be sensitive to dithering is able to try the Edge 2025, please do share your experiences. Nick at Android Central says he is sensitive to PWM and not sensitive to dithering. Therefore, the fact the Edge 2025 dithers heavily has no detrimental impact on his user experience.

ITwebs

K-Moss

Your case only shows that temporal dithering does not affect your eye comfort. It does not, however, lead to the conclusion that temporal dithering is not a factor that people should pay attention to.

K-Moss

ITwebs Where is the evidence "temporal dithering" causes eye strain for many? I don't notice anything from the heavy dithering on the Edge 2025, nor does Nick.

WhisperingWind

jordan iPhone 11 is the absolute worst screen I have ever used. It dithers bad.

A couple of years ago, I bought an iPhone 11 and had a similar experience – my eyes hurt very badly.

WhisperingWind

K-Moss

For a reliable result, a larger sample size is needed because we all have different medical diagnoses and different eye sensitivity. Therefore, generalizing personal experience to all of us can be mistaken. I haven't held this phone in my hands, so I can't say anything about it. But I am alarmed by how Nick plays with words in the review.

Nick at Android Central says he is sensitive to PWM and not sensitive to dithering.

In theory, the Edge 2025 is supposed to exert more strain on the eyes due to dithering heavily. I went into testing it thinking it would surely be worse than the Edge 2024. Therefore, this goes to show dithering doesn't necessarily worsen the comfort of a display.

Nick's Initial Position: He clearly states that he is not sensitive to dithering.

Main Assumption: Nick says: "I went into testing it thinking it [Edge 2025] would surely be worse than the Edge 2024". This is where the first logical dissonance arises. If he is knowingly not sensitive to dithering, why did he even expect that a specific phone with dithering would be worse for him? However, he needs this assumption later in his review in order to debunk it by saying that it's not true. But he cannot debunk it, because it can only be debunked by a group of people sensitive to dithering (to which he does not belong). Accordingly, this so-called debunking is merely a marketing tactic to sell the new phone to everyone.

The Testing Process and Conclusion: He tests a device that uses a technology to which he is insensitive and feels no discomfort. This is an absolutely predictable and logical result that proves precisely nothing, except that he once again did not perceive the dithering.

Incorrect Generalization: The key mistake lies in the final conclusion: "Therefore, this goes to show dithering doesn't necessarily worsen the comfort of a display."

His test cannot show this. It only showed that dithering does not worsen comfort for him personally.
To make such a general conclusion, it is necessary to conduct a study with a sample of people that includes those who are known to be sensitive to dithering. If the majority among them did not notice any deterioration with the Edge 2025, then the conclusion would be justified.

Blooey

K-Moss Where is the evidence "temporal dithering" causes eye strain for many?

If you think about it simply, a 1-bit display (black or white only) could simulate six extra shades by rapidly toggling pixels on and off in a repeating pattern. That is all temporal dithering really is: using time to fake precision. At 1-bit you would clearly see the flicker, and everyone would, because alternating black and white pixels is a 100% modulation signal that falls deep inside the visible range. As you add more bits, the same principle still applies, but the brightness changes become smaller until they blend together.

According to the IEEE PAR1789 standard, once the effective modulation frequency reaches around 40 Hz, the risk of visible 8-bit flicker enters the no-effect level. But an 8-bit + FRC pattern repeating every four frames sits at 15 Hz, which falls short of that threshold.

K-Moss

All I know is the Edge 2025 is very popular, dithers heavily, and I haven't found one single anecdote of it causing eye strain.