Need a new computer and monitor. Can't find anything that my eyes will accept.

PurpleAvocado

AshX
Hmm, interesting. That's rather frustrating. I've been hopping between two computers. I went out and got an m4 mac mini to use as I continue to trial this studio display (as mentioned before, using better display with dithering off and forced to 8-bit mode while also running f.lux). Prior to that I was using my brother's PC laptop. It only has an integrated graphics card so there's no way to adjust the color settings, which was also difficult as I realize the way the PC handles colors is much different than the way the mac does. The reds I find are super saturated and are egrigous on my eyes, which is a separate issue.

Laptop was running windows 11, I forget what brand it was. Mac mini is using Sequoia 15.6. I use my iphone 12 pro max every day, I even used it to play Marvel Snap for 6+ hours a day with no eye fatigue or burning. iPad is the old ipad pro 2018 and TV is an old 42" 1080p Samsung (before they made everything smart tvs), those are all fine, do not give me issues like any of the computer monitors I've used do.

Clokwork
I had no idea of this.

AshX

PurpleAvocado Mac mini is using Sequoia 15.6. I use my iphone 12 pro max every day, I even used it to play Marvel Snap for 6+ hours a day with no eye fatigue or burning.

What iOS version is your iPhone 12 Pro on? Have you tried any of the Apple MacBook Airs or MiniLED MacBook Pros in store? If those give you issues we can confirm that flicker is a driver for your symptoms (PWM and dithering on the MBPs and dithering on the MBAs).

I use an iPhone 13 on iOS 15 and I can use a family member’s iPhone 13 on iOS 18 (both manufactured 2021). Things changed after the iPhone 13 series. If you end up checking the MacBooks out, I’d recommend looking at the iPhone 17 phones, too, to see if they give you issues. The fact that you use a much older TV (you said pre-Smart TV so I’m assuming early 2010s or earlier?) is making me think you’re in a similar boat as me and many others here. I’m one of the odd ones who can use an OLED device (most here can’t) but can’t use any of the new Macs or PC laptops. If I read your post correctly, the PC is also uncomfortable?

@Clokwork is correct. MacOS always wants to output 10-bit and to my knowledge every Apple display is essentially controlled by the Mac connected to it and has no onboard settings/controls like every other monitor in existence. I tried the Studio Display as well and it didn’t work even with dithering disabled.

If you still have the Studio Display you could try maybe finding a low bandwidth HDMI cable and buying the Apple HDMI adapter to connect it to see if you can brute force 8-bit, assuming you’re connected via Thunderbolt/USB-C it’s probably detecting 10-bit despite BetterDisplay and applying it’s own FRC processing. Intel Macs used to have specific connections and resolution limits and some found success that way.

It’s going to take some trial and error.

PurpleAvocado

AshX
My iphone is on 26.1. I have tried the m4 macbook pro, yeah. Same issues as what I am getting on the studio display. I have used the M1 ipad pros and didn't have this issue. I don't think I get this issue when I look at the new ones either. It's just weird to me, because I can feel my eyes straining even when I'm looking at the screen of the studio display while it's turned off. Which makes me think it has something to do with the reflective coating more than anything else. I had tried even using one of my brother's old macbook pros, I think from 2010s. The panel itself I believe was a pure 8-bit panel as it didn't have any option to turn dithering off on better display and even that gave me eye strain/burn.

AshX

PurpleAvocado

Your symptoms are virtually identical to mine. I have a 2015 15” MacBook Pro and while it’s better than modern Macs, I get issues within a few minutes. My symptoms are similar to yours where my eyes can’t focus and if I keep pushing, I feel pressure in the middle of my forehead when I try to read or focus my eyes. I also used to be able to use an iPad Pro M2 12.9” before it updates to iPadOS 17 and introduced dithering.

So, a few things. My old iMac 2019 dithered but also had what we colloquially call the “gray color flicker” which is essentially a voltage flicker as a consequence of FRC on a lot of Macs, both Intel and Apple Silicon. You can test your devices by pulling up a full screen gray background and recording in 240 fps slow motion on your iPhone. The MiniLED MacBook Pros and iPads do not have this, but the MacBook Airs and Studio Display does. I’ve tested every model myself.

A lot of this is unfortunately guesswork, but it’s likely your brother’s MacBook Pro is not a true 8-bit panel, but is actually 6-bit+FRC. I think my MacBook Pro is the same. Either that or they have pixel walk/pixel inversion. Regardless, we cannot disable dithering on the Intel Macs so it’s a moot point.

I think more than the reflective coating, probably what is also triggering you on the modern Macs is the KSF phosphor and the dreaded panel lottery. KSF is a powder they use in the manufacturing of wide gamut capable LCDs and the color spectrum can irritate a lot of people’s eyes. The panel lottery is essentially what manufacturer you’re going to get and it’s random. So many things can be different between panels even from the same manufacturer - I’ve witnessed it myself. But given the immediacy of your symptoms, just like mine, I think it’s likely something hardware based as well. The coating very well could play a role but I’m starting to think it’s the light source and pixel arrangement itself that is setting me off, with flicker compounding on top.

When you say you have issues with the Studio Display off, do you mean disconnected from power? Or just in a sleep mode or a screen saver?

PurpleAvocado

AshX
Ok, interesting. All of that makes a lot of sense. So what have you done to overcome this hurdle? So far, the only things I've managed to do is just avoid everything and stick to what I have, which isn't an option when I want a new computer that isn't 15 years old.

For me, when I look at these screens, it's like my eyes just can't focus on the image as well and so I have to squint in order for things to be clear, despite the image and the font being super crystal clear already. I can literally feel my eyes relaxing and tensing up when I go between my iphone and the studio display.

With the studio diplay off, both with the drive off/sleep mode and unplugged. I can see a big difference in the way the glass refracts light between my 2010 imac and the SD. The images in the imac are almost like a mirrored reflection on a black background, same as my iphone, but when you look at the SD or even the m4 macbook pro, the screen absorbs a lot of that reflection. It's still a mirrior like reflection that doesn't seem to diffuse the light like a matte coating would, but it is definitely muted and very different than those other screens.

AshX

PurpleAvocado Ok, interesting. All of that makes a lot of sense. So what have you done to overcome this hurdle? So far, the only things I've managed to do is just avoid everything and stick to what I have, which isn't an option when I want a new computer that isn't 15 years old.

Essentially this. My issues started after a COVID infection, though most on these forums have had issues for many years. At this point I’ve just been testing computers and only use my iPhone 13. I don’t have the money to test a bunch at once (medical bills are expensive) and my reactions tend to be quite severe (the 15” MacBook Air M4 caused a seizure) so I try to test one every few weeks. No luck so far.

PurpleAvocado For me, when I look at these screens, it's like my eyes just can't focus on the image as well and so I have to squint in order for things to be clear, despite the image and the font being super crystal clear already. I can literally feel my eyes relaxing and tensing up when I go between my iphone and the studio display.

Same symptoms. Funny thing is my iPhone 13 was manufactured in 2021 and when I started having these symptoms when I tried to upgrade to an iPhone 15 Pro in May 2023, I went to the Apple Store and held my iPhone 13 next to all the newly 2023 manufactured iPhone 13’s and got the same symptoms as the iPhone 15 Pro. Something changed in the screen tech even on the same phone model between those 2 years.

PurpleAvocado With the studio diplay off, both with the drive off/sleep mode and unplugged. I can see a big difference in the way the glass refracts light between my 2010 imac and the SD. The images in the imac are almost like a mirrored reflection on a black background, same as my iphone, but when you look at the SD or even the m4 macbook pro, the screen absorbs a lot of that reflection. It's still a mirrior like reflection that doesn't seem to diffuse the light like a matte coating would, but it is definitely muted and very different than those other screens.

This is very interesting. I’ve tested several iMac 24” M4’s and Studio Displays and it’s almost like I can see the individual LED lights poking through when looking at the screen - it’s painful. I actually wonder if it’s not the coating but rather the lack of thick glass to diffuse the light. The MacBook Airs are the best example of this because they are so thin compared to the older Retina screens that had thicker glass and different diffusion sheets in the panel manufacturing.

Looking at a lot of these Macs is like looking at one of those checkered images that creates an illusion of depth - immediately disorienting. Apple did indeed change the reflective coating on these Macs even during the Touchbar era and then again during the Apple Silicon MiniLED and Liquid Retina era. I actually find the MiniLED Pros better in terms of contrast but the PWM and FRC is too intense so it negates that.

Have you tried the iPad Air models? They also have the gray color flicker and give me the same symptoms as the MacBook Air. The iPad Pro M5 is Tandem OLED but the PWM is pretty rough so while it doesn’t have the same immediate effect as the LCDs, once again the PWM makes it unusable.

OLED iPhones are also circularly polarized whereas the LCDs are linearly polarized (either horizontally or vertically). This is why it you take a pair of polarized sunglasses and hold them vertically or horizontally, the screen will be black.

As you can probably surmise, it is likely not one factor but many. Most people here do rely on either older devices or find ways to disable dithering and use external monitors that are PWM free and true 8-bit. That in itself takes trial and error.

I wish I had a solution for you. Unfortunately everyone has their own journey and we all try to share advice the best we can on this forum to help each other find usable setups.

PurpleAvocado

AshX
I appreciate the long and detailed write-up. It gives me a lot to think about/consider. It seems like there is no easy solution to any of this. I wonder if in your case, with covid, maybe it caused an increase in the way your body handles inflammation and so, things that would typically not affect us the same way, become hyper-sensitive irritants? I have digestive dysbiosis myself and so my body always feels inflamed. If I don't take the right supplements, it very easily gets out of control. I remember when I first got my 2010 imac, there was a transition period for my eyes to get used to going from a 1080p > 1440p monitor that I eventually acclimated to. I wonder if the constant inflammation just prvents that acclimation from happening. I definitely agree with you as well about the things that affect us are very likely a combination of many different things adding to the pile. I guess it just means a lot of experimenting. Some people have gone so far as to suggest using a custom display by dismantling an imac and using the board from that monitor as a frankensteined monitor to use on a PC. Which sounds useful, but the biggest concern I have about that it's potentially expensive, with absolutely no recourse is something were to fail.

JimK
These seem like adequate solutions if my only use case for the computer were just to browse the web and check emails. As I try to work on improving my health, the goal is to use 3d software and drawings apps like photoshop, which I don't think I can do with those set ups. I use photoshop now, or rather, I did until my previous mac fried itself. It was a pain in the ass because of how out of date the hardware is.

JimK

PurpleAvocado Regarding the monitors. Go either for E-Ink or RLCD technology. I believe that it will either solve or at least reduce your problem.

Regrading the graphic card, try using Geforce GTX Kepler cards or GTX 1660, all of them only with Samsung microchip and VGA Cable connection as well if applicable. I believe that you will see a lot of improvement.

FabiFr

Hi @PurpleAvocado,

I just wanted to say that I’m exactly in the same situation as you.

I also rely on an old iMac from the mid-2000s (running macOS 10.7.5), and it is literally the only computer I can use without immediate eye strain, headaches, facial/neck tension, and neurological discomfort.

Like you, I’ve tried many modern screens, laptops, smartphones, and operating systems — Windows, Linux, macOS — and all of them trigger symptoms within seconds.

So I understand your frustration perfectly.

What’s interesting in my case is this:

🔹 On my old iMac, macOS causes no symptoms

I can work all day without problems.

🔹 But if I boot the SAME machine with Linux, it immediately becomes unusable

Even though the hardware is identical, Linux triggers the same eye pain as any new computer.

This makes me think the problem is 100% software/driver-related (temporal dithering, FRC, text rendering, color pipeline, compositing, etc.).

This is why your experience resonates with me:

• It is NOT just the panel type

• It is NOT just the brightness or contrast

• It seems related to the modern rendering pipeline (GPU drivers, color depth conversions, dithering, subpixel rendering, anti-reflective coatings, etc.

jordan

FabiFr What GPU is in your mac? For example nvidia activates temporal dithering by default BUT you can turn it off very easily. If its older amd im not sure on its behavior but on rdna2 amd its off by default AFTER leaving the installer. Intel uses spatial by default on any display under 8 bit. Also not all linux is equal as theres different windows managers, compositors ,etc - some people find turning off the compositor brings comfort right away.

brjdenis

@FabiFr yes, it seems that the main problem is the software. On Ubuntu things went down from 14.0.1 onwards.

Clokwork

It stinks that of all operating systems that Linux won't give you the opportunity to disable FRC (Temporal Dithering).

I do however understand it can be done at the OS level, possibly driver level, and GPU hardware level.

It's just a bummer as I held a tiny bit of hope for the Steam Box to be usable. I hope they hear us some day. This would make the Steam Box even more popular as more people would be able to use it.

Just a heads up, I do have an open thread that could use some co-signing regarding this:

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/601909079151043323/

Edit: BTW, it's super low power, but you could always try a Raspberry Pi. I can use it with very few issues. It's possible the GPU isn't powerful enough to handle dithering.

JTL

Clokwork It stinks that of all operating systems that Linux won't give you the opportunity to disable FRC (Temporal Dithering).

It's not they won't give it to you, it's that each GPU driver is essentially independent from each other, and it might even depend on what the GPU chipset is doing internally on top of that. And that is assuming Temporal Dithering/FRC is the problem in the first place. Caveat emptor.

I do however understand it can be done at the OS level, possibly driver level, and GPU hardware level.

I think you forgot that the panel driver (e.g TCON) could be doing it as well. 😆

Clokwork

JTL think you forgot that the panel driver (e.g TCON) could be doing it as well. 😆

Oh you’re absolutely right. I was just thinking from the PC’s perspective and the OS 😅

I’m also certain FRC is one of my main issues.