APC75 Some of the other people responding reckon this is PPM but what can be done with the amazon fire-stick to resolve this? I

I don't believe PWM or flicker is the root cause of (at least my) issue. Flicker is usually brought up as a culprit but to date I have never had any real lif evidence that it had anything to do with my symptoms. I know it "sounds" right to suspect it, and maybe it is a cause for some peoples issues, I don't know.

Only color settings have been a solve for me, and a known source of my pain. Which does fit in with the Fire/Roku sticks causing me pain in a display that otherwise didn't. The stick have their own video cards in them, and those video cards can differ in the way they tell the display to generate colors. Unfortunately this is not "fixable" as far as I know.

Also, plasmas are not inherently any better than LED TV's for me. I have a plasma TV in my bedroom, zero issues, I bought a plasma TV for the living room, couldn;t look at it for a few seconds without massive eye pain, replaced it withan LD, and have no problems with that as long as it is on the "Game" video setting, which changes the display color intensity.

I wish Android allowed for ICC profiles but Google has handwaved away the request and does not look interested in implementing it

      ensete I know you want to blame "colors" and I don't disagree with you, but "colors" and "flicker" are often the same. If your color settings are wrong, either the card or display will attempt to compensate by using some kind of dithering/interpolation effect. So while "flicker" might not be the right term in all cases, it certainly is a decent descriptor in many of them.

          6 days later

          Gurm I know you want to blame "colors" and I don't disagree with you, but "colors" and "flicker" are often the same.

          Could be, could not be. Thats why I said that flicker does not cause a problem for me. In my specific case a monitor certified as Flicker Free was causing intense pain until I corrected the color problem. Irlen Syndrome is built around this concept of certain people not tolerating certain frequencies of color well

          I question the flicker/PWN "diagnosis" because it seems to be the default culprit that jumps into people minds, however I haven't seen any medical studies or cases outside of advanced epilepsy where flickering lights actually cause eye strain or pain. I'm not saying it's NOT flicker or PWM, or that folks haven't found relief by eliminating flicker from their situation, I'm saying that each individual shouldn't be so fast to jump on the "it must be flicker/PWM" train. That could lead to a lot of time spent barking up the wrong tree, and unneeded suffering. An honestly, flickering lights are nothing new, I would be suspicious of a flicking fluorescent bulb causing someone no problems but a flicking screen causing problems.

          Once again I am not dismissing anyones claims, I'm just saying we should all keep an open mind on the root cause and not be so laser focused on flicker/PWN/dithering. Lot of folks on here have eliminated all of those factors and still have issue.

          • JTL replied to this.
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              ensete Flickering fluorescent bulbs and screens with PWM caused my severe problems until recently. But I am trying new cannabinoid medicine because I live in Canada where it is legal. I've already told @degen and a few other people about it. Maybe I should write about it later given I have 4 months of data.

              Also my eyes have built up quite a strong resistance to triggers, the best they've been since 6 years ago before I had this problem.

                  JTL Glad to hear you found some relief. I am a medical marijuana patient in the US, and using MJ does help with the pain after I am triggered and helps me sleep, but it is not a preventative.

                  Biofeedback and Nuerofeedback have been the best treatments so far, I would say my resistance to triggers have increase roughly 40%, but some light still punch right through that with ease. I continue nuerofeedback treatment and hope to see more benefit as time goes on.

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                      ensete I'm sure that if marijuana became Schedule II or III in the US it would allow for an easier time for scientists to study it, maybe then we can figure out it has such a major effect on myself, etc.

                      Unfortunately with people like Jeff Sessions in charge of matters related to drug policy I highly doubt it.

                        3 months later

                        ensete ok do you know of a stick or modern tablet that will plug into the TV I use and not cause trouble? The tablet I'm currently using is a Tesco Hudl which won't last forever and they've been discontinued. It was a supermarket made tablet but has been surprisingly resilient considering is has been running consistently for 4 years. For clarity I can't use the Hudl screen as it is LED so hurts but no problems plugged into my LCD (pre-LED era) TV.

                            APC75 Can you still use the touch screen when the tablet is plugged in? I suppose the screen goes off. If you don't need a touch screen, you could buy an ODROID-C2. I use it myself with a wireless keyboard. It runs Android and is usable for me (many devices aren't).

                              APC75 I have tried the Roku stick and Fire stick. Both caused instant eye strain, I have not tried any other device since then

                                2 months later

                                Well my Plasma TV, which i can use without any eye strain whatsoever, now has problems, and I need to find a replacement. This worries me. Plasma is no longer available, so only LED TVs. Many LED TVs now have Android TV built in, but with Android built it also concerns me, will it cause eye strain (like some Android phones do)? So now we have to worry about PWM and graphics driver in TVs as well.

                                Anyone can use any 2017 Sony LED TVs without eye strain? If yes, can you share the model number.

                                  Kray

                                  The X850E from Sony's 2017 lineup is pretty good. I wrote about it a bit earlier in this thread. In terms of PQ it is the best non-PWM LED-backlit (and non-OLED) TV available, and it has a VA panel. I have the 65" version but have not used the 75" version which according to Rtings has an IPS panel and so might as well be a different TV. I've looked at it for several hours without issue. The backlight is not that dim even at 0% so I am forced to turn the contrast quite low for extended viewing, to a level that impacts the PQ negatively.

                                  From what I've seen from Rtings reviews the backlight is actually dim in comparison to many other LED-backlit TVs, which must be painful.

                                  I think if you are not sensitive to brightness I would give it a shot.

                                  The Android TV on it is useless it is so slow and clunky. I don't really care about smart TV features but like you I am concerned if Android has any effect on non-Android TV content. Recently it got an update to 7.0 when I wasn't there and I'm not sure how it's going to effect me. I already did a factory reset since the update to address some serious lag in the settings UI so I'm not sure if it's still possible for me to downgrade (if it ever was).

                                  My eyes still can't relax on it 100% like they do on my Panasonic plasma. It's just not the same. It's in a family viewing area in a bright room so it was the best compromise I could think of to replace a pounding headache inducing TV (early LED-backlit LG) that was there previously. Because of that I keep the brightness at 0 and adjust the contrast based on time of day. 65 for daytime and 25-30 for nighttime, which are the lowest levels to retain all the necessary detail in dark scenes.

                                      degen

                                      Thanks, that's a very good point. I do not want to worry about Android TV updating itself to Nougat and causing eye strain. So I have to take Android TV off my list then. Will just go for normal Smart TV, and buy an Android Box. If it causes eye strain, can always remove the box, or replace with another one.

                                          Kray You should be able to test TV's in a Best Buy of other store and see how you react. You can request the remote control for an individual TV and fiddle with the settings while you are there. This is how I bought my LED TV (Panasonic 55" Viera) and was reasonably confident it wouldn't cause me any issues

                                              Kray I probably could have prevented the upgrade if I had the foresight to turn automatic updates off.

                                                ensete The overhead lighting and other TVs right beside the one you are looking at make this difficult. Thankfully Best Buy has no fault return for TVs so if you don't like it just return and try again. I dislike people abusing brick and mortar return policies but in this case I think it's justified as a TV that gives even a small % of the population a migraine can be considered a defective product.

                                                  I have an observation about plasma that I'd like to share.

                                                  In a dark room with an LED TV, no matter how I calibrate it the light I can see reflected on the ceiling and walls is always the same shade of blue. I'm pretty sure this comes as a surprise to no one.

                                                  However, in a dark room with my plasma TV, when I calibrate differently the light reflected on the ceilings and walls is different. I am using D-Nice's settings (considered very warm) for my Plasma ST60 and the light on the walls and ceilings is almost equal parts green(!) and blue.

                                                  Maybe this isn't really news but it affirms to me that trying to get the blue light out of WLED-backlit displays is.. not quite futile but pretty close. It's also one more reason why I think plasma is so gentle on my eyes.

                                                  Would oled tvs present a problem when it comes to temporal dithering? Do they display temporal dithering the same way lcd panels do?

                                                  6 days later

                                                  That website rtings.com is really quite good, it tells which TV models has PWM and which does not, the type of display panels used, the flickering factor etc.

                                                  Many Samsung TVs have PWM, so those are out. LG panels seems to give me eye strain when looking at it at the store. Sharp TVs, somehow I am not keen on how their picture quality looks. So far I can use Sony LED TVs without any eye strain whatsoever. So I am hoping that I can use their newer models also without eye strain.

                                                  So far my shortlisted TVs right now are:

                                                  Sony KDL-55W650D - 55 inch. This is a 2016 model, 650 series is entry level. Has less features i.e. no HDR, no Triluminos etc. I figured the less graphics "features" there are are, the less the risk of one of those "features" causing me eye strain. The picture quality is ok, pretty good, for an entry level series. I looked at the 700 series (which has HDR and Triluminos), and didnt like the colors so much...a bit too saturated for my taste.

                                                  Sony KDL-50W800C - 50 inch. This is a 2015 model. 800 series is the upper mid-range model. No HDR and Triluminous, but really good picture quality. Has Android TV. I looked at the settings, it came with Android 5.1 and the update can be turned off. So at least I dont have to worry the TV getting a Marshmallow or Nougat update. Surprisingly the Android TV seems to be better for my eyes, at least in the brief period of time when I was looking at it at the store. I dont mind getting a 2015 model. I figured, the older the model, the less risk of it having whatever it is that is causing eye strain on today's newer display devices.

                                                  Right now I am leaning towards the 800C, even though it is smaller size and older model. Is anyone using any of these 2 models above? Do they give you eye strain?

                                                    Kray Honestly TV's are so hit or miss that it's really what works for you. I'd always personally rather have a one year older upper model than a one year newer lower model, so if it were me sight unseen I'd take the 800C.

                                                    I don't know how the triluminous plays with our eyes, in theory it SEEMS good - three different colored lights, that can be turned up and down independently. But in practice on phones it was dreadful, so staying away from it might be a good plan regardless.

                                                      it tells which TV models has PWM and which does not, the type of display panels used, the flickering factor etc.

                                                      Literally zero of the TV's I have had problems using have used PWM or flicker.

                                                      dev