Help with 13” MacBook Pro

AshX

Well, here goes another try.

After 18 months of hell since I got COVID again, I found a new 13” M2 MacBook Pro Touchbar that was the least awful out of the 4 I tested. This one is on MacOS Ventura 13.2.1 and unlike the other 3 I tested (all new on the same OS version) that were all immediately painful within seconds, this one had a warmer hue/color temperature and was the least bad. Here’s what I’ve done so far:

Generic RGB color profile. The other M2’s I had did not have this. They only had sRGB 2.1. You can see immediate color changes with this. This has been the biggest positive. When I change color profiles to Color LCD, Adobe RGB, sRGB, etc. I immediately get symptoms of eye focusing problems, pressure in forehead, tachycardia.

Disabling “dim display on battery.” I kept wondering why it kept lowering the brightness to 50% when I closed the lid and reopened it. This is why.

Keeping display at 100% brightness. Still have to test this, but I can tell for sure that PWM kicks in at 50% and lower. Not sure if it’s also present at 70%.

Stillcolor. BetterDisplay is really weird on this device. I don’t like how unclear the settings are (can’t tell if it’s on or off).

Disabling Touchbar and keyboard brightness at 0%. The Touchbar has PWM and is strobing under slow motion video.

I’m convinced the color profiles are controlling the TCON. The fact that the other 13” M2 Touchbars only had sRGB 2.1 makes me think that it is entirely panel dependent. I tested 3 others that were painful immediately and this was the least awful (all testing on sRGB 2.1 side by side) but Generic RGB shows noticeable effects. I’m convinced the color profile is telling the TCON to apply FRC or not.

I’m not sure whether I should return this. It’s maxed out 24 GB RAM/1 TB SSD and seems the least awful of all the Macs I’ve tested - and I’ve tested every MacBook Air M1-M4, MBP M3-M4 all sizes, MBP 14” M5, Mac mini, iMac M4, iPad Air, iPad Pro. I could tolerate things until I got reinfected with COVID July 2024. My screen issues only started when I got COVID and long COVID in July 2022. Prior to that I could use an M1 MBP 14” on Monterey, a 2019 iMac 21.5” 4K Retina, and an iPad Pro 12.9”. Post COVID reinfection I couldn’t use the iMac anymore. No idea about the other two as I do not own them anymore.

I haven’t used any screen other than my iPhone 13 on iOS 15 for 18 months since I’ve been sick. I have 0 problems with this device. I suspect light sensitivity is playing a big role and I wonder if the fact that OLED doesn’t have a backlight and the smaller size of the iPhone 13 is playing a role. Maybe flux will work? Night shift has helped somewhat but True Tone seems to make things worse. What about a screen cover? Monitors are a serious problem because of scaling and text clarity on non-Apple monitors since Big Sur. I also have a hunch 27” is just way too much light output. It’s been a long struggle and honestly I’m getting tired.

macsforme

I understand the desire for group validation of your purchase decision, but in my view this decision is specific to each individual and their situation. However, I will share my own reasoning. I owned one of these MacBooks and it was better than some Apple screens, but the KSF phosphor LED backlight was still irritating. I also found certain brightness levels to trigger eye strain, as you mentioned. I believe one user here also found that over time, the screen on this model developed a flickering which was not present at first. The general build quality and feel of the device also reminded me of Apple's design philosophy now versus 10+ years ago, where instead of well-built tools that can take a beating, you instead have more sophisticated/elegant devices but with extremely tight clearances and manufacturing processes which IMHO reduce durability and limit service options.

AshX I found a new 13” M2 MacBook Pro Touchbar that was the least awful out of the 4 I tested.

I think this is they key point, whether to choose to own a device that is "tolerable" or the "least bad," but not "comfortable." Ultimately, I chose to sell my 2020 MacBook Pro for the reasons stated above and to avoid supporting a company selling products at a premium price which are at best only "tolerable." If I was in a situation where I needed such a laptop for work, school, or otherwise, those factors may have led me to a different conclusion.

AshX

Just wanted to add, I went to Best Buy and tested the following devices:

iPhone 17
iPhone 17 Pro
iPhone Air
iPad Pro M5
iPhone 15 Pro
MacBook Air M4
MacBook Pro 16” M4
MacBook Pro 14” M5
iMac M4
Studio Display
Lenovo Yoga Slim 9i OLED

All on the latest version of iOS 26.1 and MacOS 26.

Most comfortable in order:

iPhone 17
iPhone Air
iPhone 17 Pro
iPad Pro M5

Every other device was awful. A strange experience as I tested earlier iOS versions of the iPhone 17 series at the Apple store and t-mobile and it was literal hell. The iPhone 15 Pro which started this whole journey for me in 2023 was still bad. Confused as to what’s going on.

I wad trying to confirm a few things:

What impact is dithering and PWM playing?
What impact is KSF phosphor playing?
Is OLED natively more comfortable to me because of a lack of a global backlight like in LCD?

The only other way I can think to rule out the latter two is to find a laptop that doesn’t dither or have PWM, which is near impossible in 2025.

AshX

macsforme

Thanks. Today I have eye pain on my right eye and a headache. To say I’m disappointed is an understatement, but I am not surprised.

I think I’m at the point where because of my various health issues (long COVID, POTS, autoimmune MCTD) I don’t really know what I should be looking for. I have 10+ years of Pro Tools sessions formatted for Mac filling up a dozen hard drives. To say I’m tied to the ecosystem is an understatement. My iPhone 13 on iOS 15 is my only usable screen. But when I test computers, I get such severe symptoms like im having now, that it’s traumatic and frankly makes me not want to keep trying. But I have to because this is my career.

It’s not like many here who do get symptoms but it takes a while. I didn’t even look at the MBP Touchbar for more than 30 minutes total spaced over several intervals. Just enough to try to do settings tweaks. And the results were this severe. It didn’t help I went to Best Buy later (I was there looking at Dyson air filters to help filter mold out of my living environment), and quickly looked at all the devices. I don’t understand why I’m having such severe reactions to flicker.

The new Macs seem worse. Windows 11 is confirmed to have system wide dithering you can’t disable. So I don’t know what choices are left. Either I keep this device because at least it’s on Ventura instead of Sequoia or Tahoe, has maxed out specs, and try to find an external display. Or I leave the Mac ecosystem. But to where? Windows hasn’t been much better in my experience.

I don’t want validation…I want solutions. I’ve been without a computer for 18 months, and actively looking for 10 months. I need to work but I can’t and frankly it’s debilitating trying to even test, especially when I can’t isolate problems. I’m willing to do what I need to do, even if that means it’s just a desktop setup with this in clamshell mode, if that will work. Some people say you can acclimate…I can’t imagine acclimating to something like this. But I can use my iPhone, so that means I can use screens.

Sorry for the rant…I’m just desperate.

markdotpeters5

AshX unfortunately I think an external display on an older version of MacOS is the only solution that might work.

MacOS also appears to have system wide dithering that can't be disabled since Sequoia, so doesn't matter what display you use.

AshX

markdotpeters5

I actually accidentally stumbled across a 2019 iMac running Mojave at Guitar Center yesterday. I had zero symptoms using it. It’s very odd because it was the same OS version and hardware configuration I used for years. Suddenly mine went bad and I assumed it was from a COVID re-infection. Now I’m wondering if my screen was just going bad after not being turned on for 8 months and something shorted it. It could be a fluke but this is throwing me for a loop…but also possibly confirming dithering as the true source of my issues.

It sounds like staying on Ventura is wise then, if Sequoia and up has system-wide dithering. I wonder if downgrading to Monterey which is running Metal 2 instead of Metal 3 would help? Metal 2 was still running on the code from the Intel era Macs. Do you have any thoughts?

Just ordered a used 2011 Apple Thunderbolt Display. I figured this may be the best true 8-bit monitor ton test.

markdotpeters5

AshX afraid I didn't use MacOS that far back so can't offer any data points there sorry. What are your symptoms? They're often very similar for people that are sensitive to dithering. A kind of stress, a sensible of not really being able to focus properly on the screen, and of it being blurry, plus maybe even nausea if it's really bad. PWM tends to be more headache inducing. Not exactly the same in everyone though obviously.

AshX

markdotpeters5

I’ve been able to narrow down symptoms somewhat based on the type of flickering.

PWM is like you said, either headache or vertigo. I rented a 2025 Ford Escape with LED headlights last week and after a few minutes I’d get a headache/irritation in my eyes. I couldn’t even tolerate it as a passenger. Sometimes the MiniLED MacBook Pros will cause vertigo.

Dithering seems to be the worst for me. I surmise this is because it’s operating based on the refresh rate, and I believe the Stillcolor dev found it is about 15Hz over 4 frames when you’re at a 60Hz refresh rate. This one seems to cause serious neurological symptoms.

When I enable GPU dithering on Apple Silicon LCD Macs (MBAs or MBP 13”) I get tachycardia. I have POTS so I’m predisposed to heart rate issues. When I disable it it goes away.

General dithering symptoms (again, I’m guessing cus it’s hard to prove without a fantastic high speed camera, though I’ve captured it on my iPhone 5 and a 2015 MBP) are:

problems focusing my eyes
It starts to feel like I get a pressure in the center of my forehead in between my eyebrows. That will appear whenever I try to focus on text after being exposed to dithering. Can last for a day or two if I’ve pushed it too far
Feels like a sunburn/stinging around my eyes
Heavy eye muscles
Eye pain
Headache behind one eye

I have been trying to narrow down what specific frequencies are causing what symptoms…but it’s hard. My first symptom of any of this was after I got COVID in 2022 my left eye will protectively close when exposed to bright blue light or certain flicker. That still happens. After a 2024 reinfection I seek to have more severe neurological and muscular symptoms when exposed to flashing lights or invisible screen or LED flicker.

What is odd is I can use the iPhone 13, especially on iOS 15, though I can tolerate one on iOS 18 well enough (but not iOS 16 or 17). Also only the ones manufactured in 2021. When Apple re-released the phone as the budget model in 2023, the panel was different and I would get issues with those models compared to the 2021 models.

My guess is dithering is causing the severe symptoms based on how low frequency it is. But that’s just my educated guess.

markdotpeters5

AshX those are fairly typical symptoms from my experience. The 'tachycardia' is just an increased heart rate as dithering provokes a stress response.

Donux

I personally find that Windows 11 without any additions with external monitor is superior to other OS'es. I know it uses software dithering for anything less than 10 bit pipeline, but it does help me to focus. Windows 10, even if it may not have that dithering, and I could use those dithering disabling apps, it just not great. At the begining it seams like a relief, but after longer usage, not really. When it comes to macbooks, I kind of questioning dithering disable solutions. It kind of gives you false impression that it solved something, but in reality it didn't.

AshX

Donux

The Mac dithering disabling methods (Stillcolor and BetterDisplay( are verifiably proven to disable GPU dithering, and I think enough people have noticed an improvement that we can say it is significant, at least for the versions of MacOS they were originally tested (Monterey, Ventura, and Sonoma). So I don’t think there’s any question that it can disable it.

Whether or not that solves the problem is a whole other question. It clearly does not for many people. Is there still dithering being done by the panel itself? Maybe. Is there another form of flicker? Probably, if you’re talking about MacBooks where there is evidence from sites like notebookcheck that some sort of other weird flicker is present aside from PWM. But I don’t think dithering is good for people who are flicker sensitive.

You and I have discussed in other threads the possibility that disabling dithering on certain MacBooks may destabilize the display in some way. There are a few Apple patents that indicate the use of dithering to try to minimize flicker from a display by masking it or canceling it out. So yeah, that’s theoretically possible. I think it’s far less likely on older Retina displays like the 13” MBP, and more likely on Liquid Retina and Pro Display XDR which were designed for Apple Silicon. The former was merely given the chip and not much else before being discontinued.

The Windows 11 part is interesting. Dithering is introducing flicker which is engaging the nervous system so it sounds possible you may feel more alert, though I’d be hesitant to say so. This is very subjective though, and not really provable. I’m mainly focused on the very clear and severe effects that I’m finding flicker to cause in me personally. I’d like a relaxing screen to work on.

Donux

AshX Actually yes this is a good point, dithering stimulation can be a cause of alertness. It was similar effect with macbooks. I remember when I got first one, it was very intense screen.

macsforme

AshX The Mac dithering disabling methods (Stillcolor and BetterDisplay( are verifiably proven to disable GPU dithering, and I think enough people have noticed an improvement that we can say it is significant, at least for the versions of MacOS they were originally tested (Monterey, Ventura, and Sonoma). So I don’t think there’s any question that it can disable it.

Agreed, but I believe it has not been proven yet what effect this has on an internal MacBook screen. Capture cards have demonstrated the apparent elimination of dithering on external displays only. Personally/subjectively, I could not tell any difference on any internal MacBook screen with StillColor enabled versus disabled.

AshX

macsforme Agreed, but I believe it has not been proven yet what effect this has on an internal MacBook screen. Capture cards have demonstrated the apparent elimination of dithering on external displays only. Personally/subjectively, I could not tell any difference on any internal MacBook screen with StillColor enabled versus disabled.

I couldn’t tell a difference on the MacBook Air M4. It actually felt worse, like the screen got more “chaotic.” The presence of the “gray color flicker” which after some discussion and comparison to other screens on Reddit, appears to be a single strobe PWM that for whatever reason, becomes more obvious on gray tones. I suspect this is because gray is the most difficult color to display, and these displays - the Liquid Retina displays - are incredibly thin and under volted. It seems like they’d be prone to transistor leakage and I would not be surprised if dithering also has the side effect of masking some of the transistor leakage.

Notebookcheck has struggled to identify other forms of flicker on the MBP’s Pro Display XDR because of the PWM present on the local dimming MiniLEDs. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re missing this flicker on the Airs, either. Important to note the gray color flicker was also present on the iPad Airs, but not the older iPad sRGB models.

As far as the 13” MBP touchbars, I’ve tested with a pulse oximeter and with GPU dithering enabled, my heart rate increases. With it disabled, it subsides. But I still get other symptoms of eye focusing issues, so I suspect the panel is still dithering.

markdotpeters5

macsforme MacOS still dithers on external displays even with Betterydisplay/still color. It's torture for me to look at. If I'm wrong please show me the thread you're referring to, but it's 100% built in dithering, I can tell by the way it makes me feel.

Donux

markdotpeters5 Yes it does. I would urge you to select ICC profile such as Generic RGB, which does not try to adhere to any standard, it just sends more "raw" RGB signal. Generally - 1) Generic RGB, 2) 8 Bit color mode, 3) dithering off. This is in my opinion best possible.

The weird thing is - it does not really matter what color profile you select wide or narrow, it will still dither in order to adhere to the standard. Be it sRGB, or something else. Gamut coverage is not a measure to assess the extent of dithering IMO. Only Generic RGB, does something interesting to the whole pipeline, - i.e. significant reduction in dithering.

Also GPU on older intel macbooks is worse than apple silicon when using external monitor, all the way from rendering performance, quality, to the strain. Old - better, is a false belief. Do not buy old macs. Find best option from current models.

AshX

markdotpeters5 MacOS still dithers on external displays even with Betterydisplay/still color. It's torture for me to look at. If I'm wrong please show me the thread you're referring to, but it's 100% built in dithering, I can tell by the way it makes me feel.

Can you test with a Carson Microflip and slow motion camera to see if you can actually detect dithering on the monitor? Capture card in theory should also suffice, as outlined in the Stillcolor thread. It also matters what monitor you are using, what Mac you are using, what version it MacOS, the hardwire connection (USB-C, HDMI, display port, etc.). All this can impact the signal.

Donux Gamut coverage is not a measure to assess the extent of dithering IMO. Only Generic RGB, does something interesting to the whole pipeline, - i.e. significant reduction in dithering.

Generic RGB definitely produces a marked change to the naked eye in terms of saturation of colors on the internal screen of my 13” MBP M2…but the limited data I have found relating to the color coverage of these profiles seems to indicate sRGB is more clamped. I may do additional testing akin to what notebookcheck does so I’m not guessing.

Donux Also GPU on older intel macbooks is worse than apple silicon when using external monitor, all the way from rendering performance, quality, to the strain

I found this to be untrue. It is dependent on the OS. I found Mojave and Catalina to be much more crisp and less chaotic on both the internal screen of a MBP and iMac and external monitors. Big Sur is when they completely changed things and resolution is worse on external displays not at 4K or 5K.

markdotpeters5 the ICC profile doesn't make any difference on Macs to the OS level dithering, just like it doesn't on Windows 11, there's nothing you can do to turn it off. All those options do is reduce/turn off GPU level ditheirng.

Windows 10 for example doesn't dither if you align an 8-bit output with an 8-bit display (ie it has no need to).

I intend to prove or disprove this with MacOS by testing with an Eizo CS2740 and an Apple Pro Display XDR, both of which are confirmed by Eizo and Apple to be true 10-bit.

Donux Well it could be that I feel like this due to actual color changes, as well as gamma changes that comes with ICC. But so far, Generic RGB always reduces strain. Also achieving the same gamma using accessibility contrast control with sRGB does not give the same affect. So, I do not know for sure what is happening, but it does help.

markdotpeters5 Oh I agree it does, I usually use an SRGB ICC profile. I just assumed it was because the gamut isn't as wide, but unfortunately isn't anything like enough to mitigate the effects of OS level dithering

Can you guys both please do some testing under Microscope and/or Capture card if you have somewhat tolerable setups? I plan to do testing the next 2 weeks with several monitors, but I get severe reactions so it usually takes me longer because if I’m exposed to a bad setup, I have to wait several days before trying again. Im waiting on an Apple Thunderbolt Display from 2011 to be delivered, and I’m also going to test different versions of MacOS and different firmware.

It would be really helpful if one or both or you could actually confirm the existence of what you’re saying as it relates to whether the OS is actually dithering even with GPU dithering disabled and if color profiles do or don’t have an impact. This stuff should be visible under microscope or capture card unless 240 fps is insufficient. I do see pixel blurring particularly on the blue pixel under microscope on my 13” MBP but I can’t tell whether that’s normal or if it’s flickering and I need 960 fps slow motion.

macsforme

markdotpeters5 StillColor has been shown via capture card to disable the severe/extreme dithering on external monitors on Apple silicon machines (see the first post in that thread). Whether there is an additional layer of more subtle dithering which can cause discomfort, I concede this is possible. For example, I can subjectively perceive flickering in macOS wallpapers going back to at least High Sierra, regardless of the GPU vendor.

markdotpeters5

Donux the ICC profile doesn't make any difference on Macs to the OS level dithering, just like it doesn't on Windows 11, there's nothing you can do to turn it off. All those options do is reduce/turn off GPU level ditheirng.

Windows 10 for example doesn't dither if you align an 8-bit output with an 8-bit display (ie it has no need to).

Donux

markdotpeters5 Well it could be that I feel like this due to actual color changes, as well as gamma changes that comes with ICC. But so far, Generic RGB always reduces strain. Also achieving the same gamma using accessibility contrast control with sRGB does not give the same affect. So, I do not know for sure what is happening, but it does help.

markdotpeters5

Donux Oh I agree it does, I usually use an SRGB ICC profile. I just assumed it was because the gamut isn't as wide, but unfortunately isn't anything like enough to mitigate the effects of OS level dithering 🙁

markdotpeters5

AshX I no longer have a mac.