Help with 13” MacBook Pro

markdotpeters5

AshX I no longer have a mac.

AshX

Ah, that’s unfortunate. What device and OS version were you running when you did have one? I’ll see if I can re-create it.

markdotpeters5

AshX M1 MacBook Air, first version of Sequoia running on an Omen 27q - USBC to display port cable

AshX

markdotpeters5

I have not liked Sequoia on the models I’ve tested. It would be interesting to see how you do with an M4 Mini with your setup.

Also I checked the 2019 iMac again at Guitar Center, similar focusing issues. It’s locked on dark mode, though, and no way to access settings or download SwitchResX to switch it to 8-bit. Still curious about it, though.

markdotpeters5

I'm tempted to get another M4 Mac mini to see if anything has changed. Such a beast for the money that thing.

macsforme

markdotpeters5 StillColor has been shown via capture card to disable the severe/extreme dithering on external monitors on Apple silicon machines (see the first post in that thread). Whether there is an additional layer of more subtle dithering which can cause discomfort, I concede this is possible. For example, I can subjectively perceive flickering in macOS wallpapers going back to at least High Sierra, regardless of the GPU vendor.

AshX

macsforme For example, I can subjectively perceive flickering in macOS wallpapers going back to at least High Sierra, regardless of the GPU vendor.

Does this flickering disappear when you use a customized, non-Apple wallpaper?

macsforme

AshX Even some of Apple’s own wallpapers are more comfortable than the High Sierra default and the Monterey default where I can visibly see flickering. In particular, the satellite image of the earth from the High Sierra era does not seem to flicker. However, I assume that the flickering/dithering is inherent in the graphics pipeline and not specific to certain wallpapers.

AshX

macsforme

I just messed around to with the Mac. Have y’all not noticed that the panel is clearly dithering anytime anything with P3 colors pops up? I’m surprised no one has pointed this out…perhaps because not many here are using the Touchbar Pros on the older Retina screens?

The display is fine when I’m on sRGB content. As soon as something pops up - either a web page, image, app, or GUI content - with P3 color that section looks completely blown out. Almost like HDR is being enabled. I mean it’s so comically obvious you can practically see the dithering on gray!

BetterDisplay is working better than Stillcolor. The Mac keeps trying to re-enable dithering, so I think the fact that BetterDisplay keeps sending the command to disable it is helpful. So the Mac is stuck with FRC which is so apparent when it kicks on.

I’m on the sRGB color profile now and it’s totally fine until P3 color pops up.

macsforme

AshX I do not recall this effect but would be happy to test it. Do you have a link to a sample image and/or video that triggers this for you, so we can equalize as many factors as possible? And is this only on Apple silicon that you see this effect, or on Apple Intel as well?

Donux

AshX I actually found something else to be true, ar at least this is where my feeling is. I think color profile does influence dithering severity, but not as much as we might think. For example, to render sRGB standard, dithering would still need to be applied just to get the same color rendering from the specific hardware. There is no escape in my opinion. Yes, wide gamut options dither more, but so do other profiles. From practice the weird thing I found is - Color Match RGB with default color values, seam to be producing less dithered signal. Then the next best is Generic RGB, but due to primitive nature of this color profile, it can cause eye strain due to other causes than dithering itself.

AshX

Updating you guys on some additional things I’ve noticed:

White text on gray/black backgrounds looks like it’s glowing and blurry. Very difficult to read this. I downloaded the Console app for my UAD Apollo interface and you can’t read a damn thing
sRGB is the best ICC progile. I spoke with several professional colorists and they explained that this will not truly clamp the color space because the native display is calibrated by the factory to P3 wide color. Everything will just look blown out when it tries to display the P3 color space
I had to go into MacOS recovery to modify security settings for my audio interface. All forms of dithering (GPU and FRC) was enabled along with font smoothing. Absolutely brutal experience with serious tachycardia just with the screen up for 2 minutes. Would not recommend, lol!

Any thoughts on how to deal with the glowing text? None of the accessibility options seem to help at all. Still waiting on my external display to be delivered.

AshX

macsforme

This seems to be an Apple Silicon only issue, or perhaps a MacOS Ventura and up issue. I don’t have access to a machine with Big Sur or Monterey, though I did use the 13-inch touchbar Macs, both the 2019 intel version and the 2020 M1 version, on Catalina and Big Sur respectively, and the photos I have don’t seem to show this effect. Granted, this was all before I got COVID and I didn’t have issues but I do know I would have noticed this effect.

I believe this post by the creator of Black Light and Gamma Control explains what I’m noticing: https://michelf.ca/blog/2020/brighter-than-white-edr-on-macs/

I see this clearly on programs with deep colors or white text on a black or gray background. The new UAD Console program for my audio interface is the worst offender: https://www.uaudio.com/products/uad-console-app?srsltid=AfmBOoo8q2ogz9Q1hnb0Byb_MflfIGeJd8-ovfRma9iBH26uF6Ir2mmB

I tested a 2019 21.5” 4K iMac (same model and OS, MacOS Mojave, as my Mac I used for 6 years) at Guitar Center and it has none of these issues. White text is fine and nothing is over exposed or blown out. I also have a 2015 15” MBP on MacOS Catalina and it’s fine. Even programs like the UAD Console program aren’t this aggressive. Their older version is much tamer, so it’s why I wonder if these new programs are being built with P3 in mind or if it’s just using Apple’s GUI via Metal 3 and that’s why it’s going straight into P3. The only way to know for sure is to downgrade to Monterey which runs the older Metal 2 architecture and see if that is better.

I’ll take some photos on the 13-inch MBP screen and the external 2011 Apple Thunderbolt Display I recently got. I will say that even on the Thunderbolt Display this effect was there, so it’s making me think this is a MacOS problem rather than an internal screen problem since I’ve owned 2 of these laptops previously as I mentioned and they didn’t have this issue. The only difference is an Intel and M1 chip vs. the M2 chip on my current MBP, plus Ventura OS. Allegedly they’re all using the same older 2016-2022 Retina 13-inch screen panel.

edit: This blog post by Stu Maschwitz seems to confirm a few things: https://prolost.com/blog/edr

I’ve had this nagging theory that despite Apple never specifically stating that Metal is being used outside of pro apps like Photoshop/Premiere Pro or gaming, that starting around Apple Silicon’s release they started utilizing it to render a whole lot more within MacOS itself behind the scenes. I’ve wondered if Metal 3, which replaced Metal 2 and effectively starting adding Apple Silicon-only features, released alongside Ventura is when this kicked up even more. This particular line stands out to me:

I don’t love using this simplistic 8-bit nomenclature for RGB color values, but in this context I’m doing so to invoke an old-school familiarity (echoed by the Digital Color Meter app). Between high-bit-depth P3 displays, display color management, software calibration, and True Tone, it’s probably been a very long time since “white” in a Mac UI was truly [255-255-255](tel:255-255-255).

AshX

Well, I figured I’d post an update since receiving my 2011 27” Apple Thunderbolt Display on Dec 19th. It’s been nearly 2 and a half weeks of testing and I’ve tried probably more with this combination than I have in the past year of trying to find a usable device.

The good

It’s a beautiful display. Looks better than most of the modern displays and I appreciate the color accuracy and build quality. You can tell it isn’t a modern KSF or QD display and I like that it’s not very bright. I did my best to try to detect PWM and couldn’t find any. If it’s there, it’s very high frequency.

The bad

Unfortunately this hasn’t solved any of my problems. I’ve gotten further with this display than any other. I’ve tried every conceivable setting: disabling dithering, night shift, low brightness, high brightness, reduce transparency, reduce motion, sitting close to the display, sitting far from the display, looking at the display from across the room, looking at the display with natural daylight, and so on and so on. I’ve tried different resolutions, I’ve tried dark mode, I’ve tried everything.

As soon as I turn this thing on just opening a Google homepage causes trouble focusing and sometimes even dizziness. Maybe this is just a me problem, I don’t know. I’ve made similar tweaks to the internal MBP screen. That panel is calm one minute and erratic the next.

The Thunderbolt Display does have an extra pane of glass that causes a slight double image you can see reflected in the display when it’s off. No idea if this is a trigger.

So yeah. Other than testing every incremental version of MacOS, I think I’m done. My last two tests will be connecting my 2015 15” MBP on Catalina to see if that makes a difference. I guess I can even downgrade it to Mojave for the hell of it. And then I’m going to try with a ton of backlighting in the room.

I wouldn’t dissuade anyone from trying this combination. This could just be a “me” problem with my awful health thanks to long COVID.

Anyway, it’s been a pleasure being part of the community through this ordeal. Thank you to everyone who has tried to help. I think I need to take a break from all this for a while. There’s only so much one can do trying to isolate triggers when you’re dealing with an operating system like MacOS that seems to like to apply dithering whenever it wants to, despite attempts at disabling it.

Ash

macsforme

AshX As soon as I turn this thing on just opening a Google homepage causes trouble focusing and sometimes even dizziness.

We should not discount the factor of modern web browsers contributing to strain. For example, there are many reports of modern versions of Safari (I believe after, or starting with, Safari 14ish) introducing strain. The good news in theory is that there are open-source web browsers that should be able to be tweaked or customized to our needs. I am unsure whether this has been explored in practice.

AshX I looked at a nano texture iMac M4 on MacOS Tahoe at Best Buy last week. It was the most usable experience I’ve had with an Apple Silicon Mac.

This is not the first report of the Apple silicon iMac being among the most comfortable modern Macs regarding eye strain.

AshX I think I need to take a break from all this for a while.

Having experienced how frustrating and exhausting this journey is, I would certainly encourage you to take breaks and/or pace yourself as needed.

AshX

Donux

I consulted a few professional colorists and they came to the same conclusion. It’s why P3 wide colors appear “blown out” or oversaturated even on the sRGB or Generic RGB color profiles. The ICC profiles are not doing the same thing as setting, say, sRGB on an external monitor hardware. They said perhaps re-calibrating it using the sRGB color space and overriding the factory calibration could improve it somewhat. But really what we’d likely have to do is gain access to the EDID or TCON of the internal panel to force 8-bit. But yeah, I’m in complete agreement with you.

My mom has a Dell Latitude for work that used to be 100% usable for me on Windows 10. Now it is on Windows 11 and problematic. Even so, she asked me to help her with something and I could navigate Google and several other web pages no problem. Only when she opened an application with deep colors did I start to have issues.

Despite swearing off messing with my MBP again, I figured screw it, I’ll open it up. Even with Stillcolor enabled I got immediate vertigo and almost fell over (I was standing both times). The Dell didn’t cause this. I have no other conclusion other than dithering/FRC.

Donux

AshX I kind of get different symthoms with different laptops 🙂 Macbook air m2 was bad, moved to macbook pro 2015. I thought this is it. Until I started to realise screen is causing me actually more problems. Probably my macbook pro 2015 will become linux machine. And overall, macbook air m2, with all the settings you can apply, it is usable. It produces symthoms for me, but those are "better" than everything else. As for windows 11, I use it over win 10 1809. Only need to install ditherig.exe, and it will work okish.

AshX

Donux

This is what makes things such a challenge. So many people have such different reactions, sometimes from the same model of machines. I don’t know how much of this is chalked up to individual sensitivities or variation in hardware and software. The Touchbar Pro was supposed to be the best non-flicker option, and while it doesn’t cause the same nervous system pre-seizure symptoms as the M4 MacBook Air did for me, it doesn’t work for any sort of extended use.

I looked at a nano texture iMac M4 on MacOS Tahoe at Best Buy last week. It was the most usable experience I’ve had with an Apple Silicon Mac. Why? And who is to say that buying one will result in the same experience.

If it were just normal eyestrain, that’s one thing. But it’s not.

AshX

macsforme The good news in theory is that there are open-source web browsers that should be able to be tweaked or customized to our needs. I am unsure whether this has been explored in practice.

I had heard this as well. I only tried Safari and Chrome. I cannot discount the possibility that the Apple Thunderbolt Display could be introducing some sort of flicker into the mix. I’m going to try to fish out my 2015 15” MBP to connect it and see if that makes a difference. It’s on Catalina though and I know people had issues with that OS, too.

macsforme This is not the first report of the Apple silicon iMac being among the most comfortable modern Macs regarding eye strain.

I was surprised. I did notice an increase in visual snow after trying it, which I’m not sure if it’s because of the nano texture or the brightness of the display. The Apple Studio display had a similar effect on me while testing in-store a few months ago. Granted, I was not able to disable dithering so that could be the cause.

One consistent positive I’ve noticed is using these devices in well-lit environments does help. I’m not opposed to the iMac form factor - I’ve used them exclusively professionally for music production for the past 15 years - but I am tiring of having a semi-positive experience in-store and then it doesn’t work out at home.

macsforme Having experienced how frustrating and exhausting this journey is, I would certainly encourage you to take breaks and/or pace yourself as needed.

Thank you for saying this. I’ve been pushing it much more in the past 2 weeks than I have the past 11 months of this ordeal. I’m desperate to work again - both financially and for my mental health - but it really is like slamming your head against a brick wall. Or in my case, like someone has punched and stabbed you in the eyes after testing a device for 10-15 minutes.

I’m a logical person and so much of this seems illogical, mostly because there are so many unknowns. It’s also very costly and time consuming having to spend $1-2k on a device at a time, and then either returning it or selling it if you’re past the return date. Not to mention the physical and emotional toll. I would not wish this on my worst enemy. Long COVID has spared nothing in my life. I keep trying but some days it just feels utterly hopeless.

AshX

I wanted to update you all. I tested several screens today at Best Buy. My methodology was to test first with my unpolarized sunglasses and if somewhat tolerable then remove them. I also brought a pair of polarized sunglasses to test for polarization. Every TV and display I tested was vertically polarized. It seemed not to make much of a difference.

What I tested:

-3 W-LED OLED TVs (2 LG, 1 Samsung)
-2 QD OLED TVs
-1 QLED MiniLED TV
-5 IPS displays (HP, Dell, Lenovo) of varying refresh rates with Windows 11
-1 QD OLED monitor and 1 WOLED monitor
-iPad Pro 11” M5
-MacBook Pro 14” M5
-MacBook Air 15” M4
-iMac M4 with a nanotexture and glossy
-Apple Studio Display glossy

OLEDs were horrible. Couldn’t focus and eye pain. MiniLED awful. All the IPS were uncomfortable. iPad Pro was hell and caused horrific tachycardia. MacBook Air just as bad. 14” MBP had a less saturated image but the ProMotion VRR was bad. iMacs were bad. Nanotexture was hard to read.

Apple Studio Display wasn’t good on the Mac Mini running Tahoe. I connected my 13” MacBook Pro M2 running Monterey 12.4 and it was better. When I disabled dithering and sent an 8-bit output via BetterDisplay, I did not get symptoms. I could look at the display.

The tachycardia from the OLEDs and Macs was so bad I thought I was going to have a heart attack. No, I am not being dramatic. I had my mom there with me and felt like I was going to pass out.

I’m sorry, but I’ve tested enough devices and screens over the past year to know that flicker is my main trigger. Dithering on Apple devices is at 15Hz via GPU and 30Hz via TCON FRC. There are of us who have proven this empirically. It’s not a guess, and it’s within the U.S. Department of Energy’s risk zone within 1% modulation of those frequencies. These Apple devices because you will see they are unlike anything else on the market. I implore those of you here willing to do testing to pick up a MacBook Air and see it for yourself.

I also suspect other things like glare, voltage fluctuations that exacerbate the MacBook Airs flicker, for example, as well as display sharpness and saturation also play a role. Perhaps even polarization. But therein lies the difference between more typical eyestrain and severe physiological reactions in both medically susceptible individuals and healthy individuals. It is shocking, but I don’t know how many times I have to experience this before people start believing me and others.

Anyway. I’m all ears for suggestions but it seems to me this Apple Studio Display or the Eizo CS2740 may be my best bet.

markdotpeters5

AshX just bear in mind the Apple Studio display isn't true 10-bit so the Eizo might be a better bet, but to my knowledge no-one has demonstrated this actually solves their problems.

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