• AbstractOS

  • Eyestrain when switching from Windows to Linux

I tried removing mode xrandr --output eDP1 3840x2160_59.97 --set "dithering mode" "off"
but it just spits out unrecognized option '3840x2160_59.97'

Here's the output of "xrandr --props"

Screen 0: minimum 8 x 8, current 3840 x 2160, maximum 32767 x 32767
eDP1 connected primary 3840x2160+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 350mm x 190m
m
       EDID:  
               00ffffffffffff004d10761400000000
               311a0104a52313780ed353a85435ba25
               0d525800000001010101010101010101
               0101010101014dd000a0f0703e803020
               35005ac2100000180000000000000000
               00000000000000000000000000fe0059
               32584e44804c51313536443100000000
               0002410328001200000b010a20200056
       BACKLIGHT: 375  
               range: (0, 1500)
       Backlight: 375  
               range: (0, 1500)
       scaling mode: Full aspect  
               supported: Full, Center, Full aspect
       Colorspace: Default  
               supported: Default, RGB_Wide_Gamut_Fixed_Point, RGB_Wide_Gamut_Floating_Poin
t, opRGB, DCI-P3_RGB_D65, BT2020_RGB, BT601_YCC, BT709_YCC, XVYCC_601, XVYCC_709, SYCC_601,
opYCC_601, BT2020_CYCC, BT2020_YCC
       max bpc: 12  
               range: (6, 12)
       Broadcast RGB: Automatic  
               supported: Automatic, Full, Limited 16:235
       panel orientation: Normal  
               supported: Normal, Upside Down, Left Side Up, Right Side Up
       link-status: Good  
               supported: Good, Bad
       non-desktop: 0  
               range: (0, 1)
  3840x2160     60.00 +  59.97*  
  3200x1800     59.96    60.00    59.94   
  2880x1620     60.00    59.96    59.97   
  2560x1600     59.99    59.97   
  2560x1440     59.96    60.00    59.95   
  2048x1536     60.00   
  1920x1440     60.00   
  1856x1392     60.01   
  1792x1344     60.01   
  2048x1152     60.00    59.90    59.91   
  1920x1200     59.88    59.95   
  1920x1080     59.96    60.00    59.93   
  1600x1200     60.00   
  1680x1050     59.95    59.88   
  1400x1050     59.98   
  1600x900      60.00    59.95    59.82   
  1280x1024     60.02   
  1400x900      59.96    59.88   
  1280x960      60.00   
  1368x768      60.00    59.88    59.85   
  1280x800      59.81    59.91   
  1280x720      59.86    60.00    59.74   
  1024x768      60.00   
  1024x576      60.00    59.90    59.82   
  960x540       60.00    59.63    59.82   
  800x600       60.32    56.25   
  864x486       60.00    59.92    59.57   
  640x480       59.94   
  720x405       59.51    60.00    58.99   
  640x360       59.84    59.32    60.00   
  1280x720_334.00 333.81   
  3840x2160_59.97  59.96

Maybe I should try lowering the BPC from 12 to 8 or 6? Haven't figured out how to do that yet on Intel

    There is no dithering property showing up, so it's probably not supported by the driver.

      cizeta Haven't figured out how to do that yet on Intel

      I don't know for sure -- but I think the process to disable dithering on Intel should be similar to Windows? The ditherig source code is here: https://github.com/skawamoto0/ditherig/tree/master/ditherig. It won't compile on a *nix system because it uses Win32 libraries.

      But from what I can tell, it's writing to a PCI register to disable the dithering. I think you might be able to use the intel-gpu-utils or PCIUtils to do this.

      (This is not my area of expertise and this is just speculation / food for thought).

        KM

        As in the process of dithering isn't supported, or the ability to control it isn't?

        • KM replied to this.

            I think I'm experiencing minor issues from dithering on Linux.
            I keep seeing posts saying that, on newer versions of Windows 10, programs like Ditherig only partially turn off dithering or that the compositor still dithers some UI elements.
            So, I'm just looking for a straight enough answer. If I switch to Windows 10 and use programs like Ditherig, will things at least be better?

              degen
              Alright. It's tricky, cause it seems like I'm the only sap in this thread who has used Linux for a good while and is only recently noticing potential issues vs. those who were never even able to stand Linux in the first place.

                  17 days later

                  cizeta I take it you missed my post above. I'd used linux for a year and half maybe until I finally began to notice something was really off and it would bother me more and more. So no, you're not the only one like that. Granted though, I used CRT monitor at first, my problems came with an LCD one, but also not immediately. Strangely, the first signs came while watching some movies. I felt like my eyes were growing intolerant of certain background motion. Eventually looking at the desktop alone became painful enough for me to get off linux and go back to windows where things are fine, but my sight was never the same since.

                      Hi! First of all I'm happy to see there is a group of people trying to solve this problem. Most of the other threads are death leaving me without an answer.

                      So my situation is similar to all of yours. I can stay all the day on my Windows machine but 15 mins on any Linux distribution destroy my eyes.

                      Tried the pwn thing, different fonts, different desktop environments, different window servers, different hardware including graphic cards and monitors and always it's the same. From a old 2009 netbook to a gaming PC with and flicker free IPS monitor. I haven't managed to do the dithering thing on my actual PC since it's Intel graphics based.

                      Now there is something important that I think is neccesary to check and it is Android.

                      Android does not give me eyestrain on my phone and well uses Linux as a kernel!

                      Could it be something in the code of the Android graphic drivers that is missing in the PC Linux drivers?

                      I really hope we could find a solution to this. I want to come back to Linux but the eyestrain makes it an impossible task.

                      • JTL replied to this.

                        Azhursh Android graphics stack isn't the same as desktop Linux so making direct comparisons isn't trivial.

                        As I said elsewhere:

                        I realize some people complain about the display output on Linux, but right here. I have a workstation with a AMD Radeon Pro graphics card under Linux, and I can confirm that by default, no temporal dithering is used whatsoever, either in BIOS or the running OS.

                            Pudentane
                            I also never had a problem with CRTs on Linux. Maybe I'll just wait till I move into a place where I can make one my primary display again. I've been using just Linux for like 5 years now (jeez I feel old). I'm fine with Windows AME, but I'd miss my setup.

                            sight was never the same since

                            This is what worries me. It seems like a lot of people, even some on this forum, write off our problems as an unfortunately uncommon, weird sensitivity like an allergy or something. That very well may be true in lots of cases.
                            But, I'm leaning more and more towards the idea that some of our problems may stem from a sort of eye damage from LEDs and these devices.

                              Has anyone confirmed that, on a laptop, dithering can be removed by switching the main GPU from the integrated GPU to the dedicated GPU? I'd like to try to get my laptop to just pipe nvidia to the display. Who needs battery life. I'd rather look at a cozy screen for 2 hours instead of lasers for 4

                              JTL

                              But we have the source code over there. Maybe there is some characteristic that the Linux graphic stack is missing. Sadly we can do the same with Windows or Macos so Android is the only option that comes in to my mind.

                              Now regarding the dithering I'm with you about that. I tried disabling and enabling temporal dithering on my Windows system and nothing changed, all the options are good for my eyes. So I don't think dithering is the problem here because if that were the problem I should be able to replicate the eyestrain on Windows by tweaking the temporal dithering.

                              • JTL replied to this.

                                  Azhursh

                                  I tried disabling and enabling temporal dithering on my Windows system and nothing changed, all the options are good for my eyes

                                  It's worth noting that a) this is a desktop system, and b) I actually tested dithering (and lack of dithering) with external capture hardware

                                  If you can't tell, part of the above statement was implying I can actually use said Linux setup (well, relative compared to other operating systems)

                                  But we have the source code over there. Maybe there is some characteristic that the Linux graphic stack is missing

                                  Unfortunately the concepts between the "classic" Linux graphics stack and the Android graphics stack don't map "one to one" so investigating the issue without an empirically known cause is difficult. That was also the reason to check with above mentioned external capture hardware.

                                      JTL

                                      What are the differences between checking the dithering with an external capture hardware and looking directly at the monitor? I'm curious about that. The only thing I could do was to check two similar laptops: one with windows and the other with Linux side to side and sadly I didn't see any differences at least visually but the feeling was there.

                                      I haven done testing with hardware testing but I heard that a oscilloscope or a logic analyzer could be useful to debug the graphic card or screen.

                                        3 years later

                                        Hello everyone, I know it's about 2.5 years since the last reply on here but seeing as how anytime I bring up this topic to anyone at all, they look at me like I'm insane and then always say "have you tried blue light blocking glasses?". I discovered back in 2022 that something was causing me problems when I ordered a Lenovo Legion 7 laptop with Windows 11 on it. As soon as I started using it, I started feeling this weird tension in my eyes, and after 30 minutes or so, I was just a wreck with headaches and just feeling bad. I never put it together that it could be this sensitivity so I just didn't use it unless necessary. I have a Windows 10 machine I built back in 2022 and I can use it no problem for hours. Same with a Macbook Pro 2014 model with MacOS Catalina.

                                        Fast-forward to the last year around July 2023. I wanted to get a new laptop so I tried the Macbook Pro 2 fully customized with a lot of the high-end components. Shortly after I got it, I started running into the eyestrain issue where my eyes felt this imperceptible movement that felt like my eyes were burning. I was like "uhhh what is this". I ended up returning that machine. Keep in mind, I run flux on all of these machines AND I wear blue light blocking glasses and with Windows 11, any new Mac machine, and even Linux, I get some flavor of uncomfortable eyestrain, foggy headedness, sometimes nausea, etc.

                                        I've slowly been narrowing down my issue by trying out different machines with different OS, including Linux. Without listing all of the different laptops and operating systems I've tried, I'll just say this. My main desktop is the machine I use the most. It's an Nvidia 3080 TI and I can run Windows 10 on it no problem without issue. Fortunately Microsoft will offer the extended security license which which means I basically have until October 2028 to figure this out. It seems like a long time, but it really just isn't heh. I've tried the following Linux distros with all of them causing me the same issue:

                                        Linux Mint

                                        Linux Manjaro XFCE

                                        Linux Manjaro KDE

                                        Linux Manjaro Gnome

                                        Linux Manjaro Cinnamon

                                        Linux Manjaro Mate

                                        Zorin OS

                                        Elementary OS

                                        Pop OS

                                        Lubuntu with LXQT (started trying this out today and ran into the typical symptoms other people have mentioned. When I put my refresh rate to 60 hz, it's less painful, but as I go up to 75 -> 120 -> 145 -> 165hz, it all gets more and more strained.

                                        Anyway, I've tried a lot of different combinations of color profiles, fonts, font sizes, themes, etc, but it feels more like the video signal itself is causing me the pain across all these different operating systems. What are these developers doing in Windows 11, Mac OSX and Linux that could be causing all these issues? I'm glad others suspect it's an operating system issue maybe even down to the kernel or video drivers. All I know is I haven't found a single Linux distro that is comfortable for long periods of time. Has anyone else had any luck in the last 2.5 years?

                                          I ended up with a new PC that has a Ryzen 5600 APU (amdgpu driver, "tearfree" enabled via xrandr), using Debian Bookworm + Xfce without Xfce's compositor (amdgpu's "tearfree" instead is much better). Firefox as hardware-accelerated browser. Speaking of which, anything hardware-accelerated is hit or miss. I think if you actively avoid GPU acceleration, you might have a better time, like me. Of course, your display (backlight etc.) must be known-good. And who knows how this setup would be with a current graphics card (any manufacturer).

                                          My experience is that stuff like f.lux or however you spell it and tinkering with software brightness etc. can actually introduce eye strain.

                                            KM I appreciate your response. For the process in my machine, I'm using AMD Ryzen 9 5900X 12-core. It's weird because all of this feels like you have to find the unique combination of hardware so that you don't feel the pain of the screen. Like I had heard that the new 22H2 Windows 10 update had caused people some issues but I don't really have an issue with it. Honestly, I'd even use Windows 11 if it meant I could comfortably use the computer for extended hours without problem. For your setup with Debian Bookworm XFCE, is that something you feel confident will last you the long term? I actually am wondering if I were to try an AMD card, if I'd have an easier time. Right now, I've got my Lubuntu with LXQT setup as best I can with fonts, sizing, etc. Here is a list of things I've tried today so far. It's hard to say what's helped and what hasn't as I will need to update this when my eyes/brain aren't fatigued haha:

                                            1. I tried the nvidia-driver-535 (proprietary, tested) drivers for the GeForce RTX 3080 Ti.
                                              • Dithering was disabled by default
                                              • I changed the color profiled to be "Limited" instead of "Full"
                                              • I set Force (Full) Composition Pipeline enabled
                                              • I tried refresh rates 60hz, 75hz, 120hz, 144hz, 165hz. The higher the refresh rate, the more painful it became
                                            2. I currently am using x.org X server Nouveau display driver from xserver-xorg-video-nouveau. As a result, I can't run any games on Steam with Proton
                                            3. I unplugged my 4K monitor (which feels great on Windows 10) because just looking at the screen was causing intense strain. I am only using my Pixio 27" 2K monitor at 2560x1440 resolution
                                            4. I am using Roboto 11 point size with DPI set to 96 for window appearance
                                            5. For my desktop fonts, I am using Segoe UI size 11
                                            6. I am currently using redshift at 5000
                                            7. Brightness app (or perhaps what is actually "gamma" via OS) is set to 50% of the total slider, but looks to be at a standard brightness for the monitor compared to Windows 10.

                                            I will continue using the Nouveau display drivers, but assuming that doesn't help, would the next logical thing be to try an AMD card? I do have access to an AMD Radeon 5700 XT I could try, but it's a distance away from me so I couldn't try it right away. I have read some people who have simply "gotten used to it after awhile" so I wonder if it just takes some time for my brain to adapt? When I try Windows 10 on other machines that aren't my exact hardware configuration, including same PC but a different monitor, I start getting headaches and eyestrain.

                                              11 days later

                                              I had a same issue when I switch to linux from windows. i can work all day in windows but cant stay more than 10 mins in linux. I tried increasing PWM frequency but that didnt work and I gave up and decided to stick to windows. I dont think its just related to getting used to different fonts and themes I tried using ubuntu for a month but my eye were hurting.

                                              dev