Windows 10 Version 2004
diop System restore got confused when I swapped the SSD to a new machine and back sadly, as my first thought was the same as yours. On the plus side, I'm potentially close to having a system where I can make it 'bad' and 'good' very quickly, on a seemingly identical setup, which will be great for testing.
On Windows 7, I can play World of Tanks for much longer before pain starts. Oh well. At least Microsoft is still fiddling with the rendering. I'd be more concerned if nothing was changing at all between builds.
Over the weekend I freshly installed Win 10 2004 on several Laptops by using an iso image from the techbench site.
(https://tb.rg-adguard.net/public.php)
The following laptops where tested with respect to visual comfort:
- Thinkpad X1 Extreme FHD with Intel UHD 630 Graphics WDDM 2.6 / 2.7 drivers from 2020 (Display: 8 bit)
- Acer Travelmate P645 S with Intel HD 5500 Graphics WDDM 2.0 driver from 2017 (Display: 6 bit + FRC)
- Acer Travelmate P645 MG with Intel HD 4400 Graphics WDDM 2.0 driver from 2015 (Display: 6 bit + FRC)
(The Latest Firefox 77.0.1 browser was used for reading tests on all laptops).
On all laptops I noticed the following improvements over Windows 1909:
- Easier to read and focus on text. Particularly reading in Firefox has improved.
- The screen's content seems to be steadier and calmer.
- No neurological problems. Neither migraine-like symptoms nor any tightening/tingling of the head was noticed.
Nevertheless on all three laptops I experienced some eye strain to a varying degree. The least strain was noticeable on the older Acer latops. There I only got slightly watered, irritated eyes after some minutes of reading in the browser. I got the impression that I could use these laptops for several hours without developing any more serious strain.
The most strain I got on the newer Thinkpad. My left eye accumulated some serious pain that was creeping up after around half an hour of using it. Both eyes got also much more irritated than on the older laptops. By the way upgrading Intel drivers from WDDM 2.6 to 2.7 made no difference.
I assume that perhaps the lower level of WDDM support made a positive difference here. The laptops based on WDDM 2.0 seem to be much more eye friendly than WDDM 2.6/2.7 on the Thinkpad. Perhaps the intel UHD 630 drivers still need some fine-tuning to catch up in eye friendliness.
In short. On the Acer laptops the latest Win 10 iteration is better than the previously installed 1909. Regrettably the same cannot be said for the Thinkpad.
tfouto I don't know to be honest. Right now I am still sick from Saturday, so I can't test anything!
I am sure that the version 1809 is 100% fine on my laptop (dell latitude E5550), intel driver from 2017 with WDDM 2.0 + ditering.exe enable.
With my desktop I was using 1809 + AMD driver from 2017 with WDDM 2.2 and it was 80/90% fine. No brain problem, just some burning eyes.
Last Sunday i've formated the 1909 and installed the 1803 (i didn't have any ISO of 1709 or 1809 right now) but i can't give you any feedback right now. I need more time to recover my brain.
I think there is something that triggers my esophoria on or off, and maybe it could be the dithering that cause a less stable image?! I should try to start some visual training and/or using prismatic lens!
P.S. I think that only bill gates can help us
I'm sorry to see that there aren't that many success stories in here - currently I would view W10 v2004 as a revelation for my temporal dithering / subpixel rendering sensitivity. However, my experience is completely dependent on the Intel drivers.
I've got 7th gen Intel graphics in my laptop (HD 630) and I provided I use very old drivers I can use it all day. I have experimented with new Intel drivers (2018 - 2020) and they cause the same 'unable to focus', squiggly eye feeling that I had with Windows 1909, which will build to nausea and migraines if I continue. However, revert back to the oldest drivers I could find (Intel HD 21.20.16.4475) and the display is calm, easy on the eyes and I can use it all day on my XPS 9560.
I'm going to use this information to really push Intel to investigate.
I have also updated the Nvidia drivers of my onboard 1050Ti to the current version (26.21.14.4614) and I am experimenting with gaming on my laptop for 1 hour at a time, and have yet to get any symptoms - bear in mind this is the first time in 8 years I can game on a laptop.
Feeling boosted by all this, I went to work trying to get my brand new XPS 15 9500 to work (Intel UHD 630 on board). After days of experiments, I feel there is nothing that can be done to make this new integrated card work for me - it triggers crazy nausea, migraines and dizziness from working on it.
Overall I still can't quite believe I have a working setup, on good hardware, and a modern OS that is basically 'vanilla'. Really hope there are further success stories to come from v2004.
- Edited
JTL So frustrating isn't it? Don't suppose you're in Scotland, or even the UK...? I'm willing to chip in some money on finding a solution to this for everyone, or even advancing our knowledge of it. So if you have hardware I could use or purchase to help with investigation then I'm 100% game.
In reality though, this isn't our problem to solve, it's Intel's / AMD's / Nvidia's. I've been speaking with my contact at Microsoft and he has been speaking to a graphics guy who agreed with our hypothesis of hardware bit-depth up-scaling (using temporal dithering) that can happen at the output stage of a graphics adapter, so that confirms why some systems are 'bad' and will always be 'bad'.
But on 'good' hardware that is made bad by drivers - that is unacceptable, and will be an easy fix if we can get someone to care. These companies don't want bad press so let's start thinking collectively about how we can make a loud noise about this and get it sorted once and for all.
Haha. I get it.
si_edgey These companies don't want bad press so let's start thinking collectively about how we can make a loud noise about this and get it sorted once and for all.
Although the effects of blue light are common knowledge yet I don’t see people up in arms over it. In the case of desktop monitors sensible choices can now be made which is a godsend, however smartphones are notorious for high blue light spikes. The latest clickbait I have seen suggests premature ageing of the skin and sight loss due to excessive exposure to blue light. It is simply unacceptable for these devices to have made it past R&D with full knowledge of the harm that can be caused.
I agree that the good setup turning bad is a major fail for driver developers, and also suggests once again that this is all a software setting/dithering en masse. Getting a working driver/OS is a great start, however it’s worthless if we don’t have control at the GPU output level.
I can't recover after that weekend of trying with the 2004. I am pretty scared because now i am sick with almost my devices! I don't have eye strain / burning eyes etc.. it's just a "brain problem" massive dazzles / headache. Any suggestions on what can I do? any medicines?
Thanks
diop How are you getting on with your W10 2004 install?
20 days on and I'm happy to report that I am symptom free, and have even been enjoying gaming on my laptop for the first time in 8 years. I've been playing Portal 2 as it was the game I started playing back in January 2012 on my brand new Macbook when I experienced my first powerful migraine and started my long journey to this point.
I've installed W10 2004 on my desktop machine too (Nvidia GTX 770) and updated to the latest drivers and I'm pretty confident in saying I can use that without issues also - so far I've not had any symptoms but it needs more testing. I would say that the newest Nvidia drivers feel better to me than the older ones which is also good news.
The only caveat on my laptop is I have to use the oldest available Intel graphics drivers (21.20.16.4475) and this means that the most recent hardware I can use is the 7th gen Intel processors. Switching to drivers from 2018 - 2020 gives me symptoms, although I've not done extensive testing of this for obvious reasons. I'm also still running ditherig.exe out of a purely 'if it ain't broke' mentality.
I've now tried 2 machines with the 10th gen Intel UHD 630 graphics and both give me symptoms very quickly.
So I feel like for me at least, any dithering / subpixel rendering issues within Windows have been fixed, and now I'm completely dependant on 'good' Intel graphics drivers. I've opened a line of communication with Intel and will try to make progress on that front, but overall I'm very glad to have multiple working setups on an up-to-date OS.
Anyone else having positive experiences with v2004?
- Edited
si_edgey Thanks for the update!
What would be interesting to know is if you found a duplicate 'good' laptop via eBay etc would that be comfortable with the same drivers/OS? (At least it's a backup ) It also may be worth making a note of the VBIOS/BIOS version of your 'good' machines for future reference.
This does look like a driver issue more than ever now. I am a bit apprehensive to update anything else at the moment but hopefully others will be able to chime in with 2004 news. As you're finding out though it's all about having good drivers or GPU to begin with.