diop How are you getting on with your W10 2004 install?

20 days on and I'm happy to report that I am symptom free, and have even been enjoying gaming on my laptop for the first time in 8 years. I've been playing Portal 2 as it was the game I started playing back in January 2012 on my brand new Macbook when I experienced my first powerful migraine and started my long journey to this point.

I've installed W10 2004 on my desktop machine too (Nvidia GTX 770) and updated to the latest drivers and I'm pretty confident in saying I can use that without issues also - so far I've not had any symptoms but it needs more testing. I would say that the newest Nvidia drivers feel better to me than the older ones which is also good news.

The only caveat on my laptop is I have to use the oldest available Intel graphics drivers (21.20.16.4475) and this means that the most recent hardware I can use is the 7th gen Intel processors. Switching to drivers from 2018 - 2020 gives me symptoms, although I've not done extensive testing of this for obvious reasons. I'm also still running ditherig.exe out of a purely 'if it ain't broke' mentality.

I've now tried 2 machines with the 10th gen Intel UHD 630 graphics and both give me symptoms very quickly.

So I feel like for me at least, any dithering / subpixel rendering issues within Windows have been fixed, and now I'm completely dependant on 'good' Intel graphics drivers. I've opened a line of communication with Intel and will try to make progress on that front, but overall I'm very glad to have multiple working setups on an up-to-date OS.

Anyone else having positive experiences with v2004?

      si_edgey Thanks for the update!

      What would be interesting to know is if you found a duplicate 'good' laptop via eBay etc would that be comfortable with the same drivers/OS? (At least it's a backup 🙂) It also may be worth making a note of the VBIOS/BIOS version of your 'good' machines for future reference.

      This does look like a driver issue more than ever now. I am a bit apprehensive to update anything else at the moment but hopefully others will be able to chime in with 2004 news. As you're finding out though it's all about having good drivers or GPU to begin with.

          diop What would be interesting to know is if you found a duplicate 'good' laptop via eBay etc would that be comfortable with the same drivers/OS?

          I'm tempted to try this - it's an expensive experiment though, but a backup for the future would be nice..

            Just wanted to confirm that the combination of Windows 10 2004 (Build 19041) and Intel HD 5500 drivers from 2015
            (20.19.0015.4352) has turned out to be the most eye-friendly setup for me so far. I can work productively for hours on my laptop without any mental and physical limitations. Downgrading the Intel graphics driver from 2017 to 2015 has been worthwhile because this step seemed to have eliminated some intermittent eye-pinching sensation in my left eye. On my laptop brightness is set to at least 70% to lessen potential PWM. I have installed pangobright to reduce the glare. (https://www.pangobright.com/)

            Dithering/FRC, most likely controlled by the vbios, is noticeable on dark backgrounds but doesn´t cause me any harm. Intel´s UHD 630 drivers are still unusable for me in conjunction with Windows 10. So the outlook is bleak. ☹️

            Decided to take a look at it today so I popped it in on my NUC.

            One thing that is nice, if you have an activated Windows 7/8 you don't need to run the old upgrade utility to activate from 7 to 10. I have it, but I never bothered running it. Instead, it accepts you typing in the Windows 7 product key (and 8 as well I believe) and it'll activate. So, now I have an activated 10 Pro without having to run any of the third party utilities. Which is nice, because you can download the .iso directly from MS, all you have to do is change the user agent on your browser to a non-Windows string and it will let you download an .iso so you don't need to use their tool to construct whatever.

            I honestly don't know why people like 10. Eye issues critiques aside, it just feels slower, heavier and clunkier than 7 which is really nice and responsive on my NUC. It really shows how there's still a ton of Vista/7-era elements still kicking around that MS just slapped stuff on top of.

            Even Netflix, while sure it's nice that it lets you use full resolution, there's this "smoothness" to it that doesn't feel right to me which is likely due to the display compositor, it reminds me of the soap opera effect on TVs where tvs interpolate frames. I do prefer video on 7 for netflix, the framerate feels more natural. Of note, I also don't have this weird smoothness on my Android phone either which is whitelisted for full resolution.

            Having it search for a driver update for my monitor had it install the same colour profile as I have in 7, so that took care of the harsh white that some here have commented on that 10 has. I would suggest you have it search for an updated monitor driver in your device manager, it very well might bring a colour profile along.

            Played around with different display driver versions from multiple different years for fun. I can see subtle differences between them but that doesn't change the fact that I just don't like 10, it doesn't feel nice like a planned OS like Vista/7 is with the Aero interface. I use 10 (1809) every day Mon-Fri on my work laptop, so it's not solely a get used to it thing.

            WDDM # stayed at 2 for every version of the display driver I tried including the same one I use on 7 as well as the latest one available from Intel for download for my 5th gen cpu with HD 6000. Probably it'll never be updated past 2.

            If I was forced to, I could use 2004, but I don't want to you know? It just feels more comfortable in 7 for me, and I have everything set up the way I like it.

            Makes me laugh how Windows 10 still has two separate control panels. The gear icon, and the real one.

            Guess I'll try build 20150 beta for the heck of it which is the 20H2 update scheduled for November.

            As far as Intel driver versions go, there are definite differences, subtle but there.. but I can make a recommendation as I just spent a long while bouncing between a few looking at them.

            @Minimax I don't know what CPU generation you are, but if you're 4th-5th like myself, I'd like you to look at this one: https://downloadmirror.intel.com/29313/a08/win64_15.40.44.5107.zip in addition, https://downloadmirror.intel.com/28662/a08/win64_15.40.42.5063.zip Do 5063 first since you're coming from 4352 and it's quite similar (yes, I popped that one on too). So, the idea is that you will look at 5063 which I find to have a fairly similar refresh on the screen like 7, and if it's the same, great, then next move on to 5107 which I think is more stable/flatter. Between the two on 2004, I preferred 5107.

            @si_edgey It's not completely clear to me which gen your laptop is, you implied 7th. Assuming it's a 7th, if you feel like it, give this one a try, I can't install it on mine so cannot comment on the appearance, but it's a WDDM 2.8 beta which is very new, https://downloadmirror.intel.com/29526/a08/igfx_win10_100.8322.zip for 6th gen and up, there is a driver branch for every single WDDM point version so there's actually a quite a lot of options to check out.

              Sunspark @Minimax I don't know what CPU generation you are, but if you're 4th-5th like myself, I'd like you to look at this one: https://downloadmirror.intel.com/29313/a08/win64_15.40.44.5107.zip in addition, https://downloadmirror.intel.com/28662/a08/win64_15.40.42.5063.zip Do 5063 first since you're coming from 4352 and it's quite similar (yes, I popped that one on too). So, the idea is that you will look at 5063 which I find to have a fairly similar refresh on the screen like 7, and if it's the same, great, then next move on to 5107 which I think is more stable/flatter. Between the two on 2004, I preferred 5107.

              My current acer laptop is based on the Broadwell architecture, so it's 5th gen. I will try out your mentioned driver versions in the preferred order as soon as I have some time spare. But it can take some days before I will be able to report back my experiences. Thanks for your patience.

                Sunspark Assuming it's a 7th, if you feel like it, give this one a try

                I tried this newest driver and straight away my eyes found it hard to focus. I didn't give it more than a couple of minutes as I already have a perfect working setup with the 2016 driver. Can't understand how Intel have not picked this up over the last few years, it must be causing a lot of people trouble.

                  Minimax What to do to downgrade to WDDM to version 2.0 or is this version directly active after fresh 2004 installation?

                      I've just installed 2004. Initial impressions coming from 1909 are not good.

                      The image looks clean and solid, but I'm getting low grade eye strain that seems to build over time.

                      More testing is required, and I'm reinstalling the video drivers. Might even roll back if that's possible.

                        Markus It's directly active. I think it is specific to Broadwell. I can't get it to go higher or lower no matter what driver version I look at. I haven't tried yet to see if drivers for the later generation GPUs will install.

                        It's interesting to me how the base it wishes to install (or comes with) is 20.19.15.4531 for Broadwell GT3 (HD 6000), but if you tell it to look in the device manager it will find 20.19.15.4624 and install it, but it won't force install that version, only if you ask it to. Picture looks different. In fact, every version of the drivers I have tried all look different, I think that is ridiculous. What could they possibly be doing that there are differences?

                        When I say differences, I am talking about subjective picture "stability" whether the backlight seems to have a slight shimmer or not (some have varying intensities of this). Whether colours are more saturated or not, etc. I can absolutely see that with some the colours seem a little more muted while with others (e.g. red and yellow) are boosted, etc. We're not talking large differences, but they are there. Even one landscape scene wallpaper I sometimes throw up for testing, I look for how the picture is rendered, and whether it appears to be crawling (frc effect), some versions have more or less of it.

                        I might try other branches for fun to see if they can be installed and if so, if the wddm changes. It's the newest wddms that allow for gpu offloading of processes. I don't mind screwing around with drivers (or even OS builds within reason), because 2004 is not my daily driver.

                          Markus

                          Markus What to do to downgrade to WDDM to version 2.0 or is this version directly active after fresh 2004 installation?

                          Hi there. No, as far as my understanding goes the WDDM version is dependent on the CPU/GPU architecture and its supported DirectX feature levels. There is no way to downgrade from initially supported WDDM 2.7 to 2.0 using drivers and OS versions alone. Your best bet is to own a laptop with Haswell or Broadwell legacy architectures. I own laptops with either architecture, and on both laptops the WDDM version stays at 2.0 no matter what Windows version (e.g. 7, 8, 10) is installed. Hope this clarifies things.

                                Sunspark

                                Sunspark @Minimax I don't know what CPU generation you are, but if you're 4th-5th like myself, I'd like you to look at this one: https://downloadmirror.intel.com/29313/a08/win64_15.40.44.5107.zip in addition, https://downloadmirror.intel.com/28662/a08/win64_15.40.42.5063.zip Do 5063 first since you're coming from 4352 and it's quite similar (yes, I popped that one on too). So, the idea is that you will look at 5063 which I find to have a fairly similar refresh on the screen like 7, and if it's the same, great, then next move on to 5107 which I think is more stable/flatter. Between the two on 2004, I preferred 5107.

                                As promised here are my subjective observations after having tried drivers 4352, 5063, 5107, 5126, 4352 in the given order. I just updated drivers without uninstalling the previous one. My results mostly coincide with yours but there are surprises.

                                4352/5063: Drivers gave a rather Win 7 like viewing experience with whites/bright tones being soft and "milky". Font rending was somewhat unstable though. But no problems reading text and viewing at pictures. Actually my eyes liked it.

                                5107/5126: Whites/bright tones were harsher. Font rendering appeared to be more stable and calmer. But nevertheless I noticed some slight pinching in one eye. So back to the initial version.

                                4352 again: Now it seems to me that the screen has become brighter and font rendering calmer but the colors are still soft. I assume that during my tests some properties of the newer drivers have made it somehow into this driver installation. Perhaps there are leftovers of the previous drivers in the registry. So literally the best properties of the drivers have joined. No eye problems so far. That's strange.

                                    Minimax True, up to a point.. I was able to force-install branches from 22.* and 21.*, don't bother it's not worth doing, but it was interesting to see because WDDM stayed at 2, however on Windows 7 using the driver I use in 7 (which also has support for 10, build 4279) dxdiag reports it at wddm 1.1 in 7, and 2.0 in 10 using the same file. So the OS plays a role as well. I don't have the platform update installed, so that's probably part of it. Otherwise, 4279 is not worth using on 10.

                                    Thanks for testing. Kind of weird how unpredictable it all is. I was poking around windows update catalog as well to see if I could find anything interesting. Not really, just intermediate builds, with 5107 being the last one. They never bothered to put 5126 in there. I have a feeling that it's going to be very infrequent to see updates now. There was a year + gap between versions recently which I think was only forced because of a security update.

                                    Personally, without evidence, I think their update model must be awful at Intel. They have so many branches for different architectures and each is updated independently. To me it seems more logical to have a single harmonized universal driver, and for each silicon chipset, just have flags toggled on and off for support of various features.

                                    I feel fairly confident that our Broadwell GPU is never going to be able to take advantage of the Windows 2004 support feature to allow for offloading from the CPU to the GPU.

                                        Sunspark Personally, without evidence, I think their update model must be awful at Intel. They have so many branches for different architectures and each is updated independently. To me it seems more logical to have a single harmonized universal driver, and for each silicon chipset, just have flags toggled on and off for support of various features.

                                        Probably explains why Intel couldn't find anything as part of their "investigation" into eyestrain issues. That and I strongly suspect they were looking into the wrong place anyhow.

                                          Sunspark

                                          Sunspark True, up to a point.. I was able to force-install branches from 22.* and 21.*, don't bother it's not worth doing, but it was interesting to see because WDDM stayed at 2, however on Windows 7 using the driver I use in 7 (which also has support for 10, build 4279) dxdiag reports it at wddm 1.1 in 7, and 2.0 in 10 using the same file. So the OS plays a role as well. I don't have the platform update installed, so that's probably part of it. Otherwise, 4279 is not worth using on 10.

                                          Thanks. I stand corrected. The OS plays a significant role in WDDM support. So I think on Win 7 you will never get past 1.1.

                                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Display_Driver_Model#WDDM_1.1

                                          Sunspark I feel fairly confident that our Broadwell GPU is never going to be able to take advantage of the Windows 2004 support feature to allow for offloading from the CPU to the GPU.

                                          I agree. Some algorithms and filters used by my graphics software are awfully slow. :-(

                                                AgentX20 I've just installed 2004. Initial impressions coming from 1909 are not good.

                                                The image looks clean and solid, but I'm getting low grade eye strain that seems to build over time.

                                                More testing is required, and I'm reinstalling the video drivers. Might even roll back if that's possible.

                                                Quoting myself! So I've rolled back to 1909 and I'm more comfortable. I was then prompted to upgrade my video drivers to the newest version and... I thought there was eye-strain.

                                                So, right now I'm very suspicious about v2004 AND the newest Nvidia drivers. I vaguely recall reading that 2004 users needed newer Nvidia drivers.

                                                I dunno what to make of all of this, as the problem sensations are slow and insidious and can be hard to assess.

                                                    AgentX20 the problem sensations are slow and insidious and can be hard to assess.

                                                    This. Add in to the mix that everyone has a slightly different neurological response to things and it's impossible to translate one person's experience to another. Definitely the most frustrating thing about it.

                                                    I'm now 1 month in to my 2004 install and it has actually changed my life. I'm gaming again (first time in 8 years) and I can even use my computer late at night. I'm still using Intel drivers 21.20.16.4475 and Nvidia drivers 26.21.14.4614 on my Dell XPS 15 9560 FHD.

                                                    Switching to modern Intel drivers instantly makes my eyes unable to focus and I get the familiar dizzy / nauseus / eyegrain / migraine feelings coming on eventually. So in my case everything is working as it should except the Intel driver. Not a major issue at all though, the 2016 driver works just fine.

                                                    • JTL replied to this.

                                                        It took 2 weeks to recover. Now i can use again the iphone X, Ipad air 2, Oled tv LG B8(with PS4, Swtich and chrome cast) and the dell E5550.
                                                        Unfortunately i didn't make a copy of my old installation on my desktop and now i am still sick when i try to use it. I've tried the 1803 and 1903 with no success. I should try the 1709 or i can try to buy an nvidia 2070 but now i am scared / tired to try and get sick 🙁

                                                        si_edgey Switching to modern Intel drivers instantly makes my eyes unable to focus and I get the familiar dizzy / nauseus / eyegrain / migraine feelings coming on eventually. So in my case everything is working as it should except the Intel driver. Not a major issue at all though, the 2016 driver works just fine.

                                                        I'm beginning to think issues like this are a mix of hardware and drivers interacting with each other.

                                                        Like I've said before, wish you could visit me and there's a good chance with my capture hardware and analysis software we could probably find out what's different.

                                                        • diop replied to this.
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