Gave Windows 10 2004 (well 20H2, but I can confirm the rendering is exactly the same) another shot. Besides eye strain and face muscle tightening, it also makes my legs twitch after a while. Intel’s 26 and 27 drivers are worse than an old 22 which I found to work with my UHD 630, but it’s not good enough. This machine is usable for me on Windows 2015 LTSB with the 22 driver. I have been using that machine for up to eight hours a day (only once a week, other days are three hours), which is unheard of for me since probably over 12 years ago. Still not as bad as Kubuntu 20.04 which was instant torture (could not get anything non-Ubuntu based to load).

The twitching though, that pretty unusual symptom for me, and I've only experienced it on one other device (Huawei P30).

Since I'm rambling, I'll mention that I finally found a comfortable browser for myself, Pale Moon. Chrome is uncomfortable on any Windows version. Waterfox Classic didn't work for me either. I find Pale Moon streaming Netflix is very comfortable, much better than the PS3 (Which isn't all that comfortable. I just thought it was in comparison to much worse options).

Anyway, the dithering pattern on the same wallpaper (I presume. It's noise. Like the snowy channel on old TVs) is much more pronounced and harsher on Windows 10 2004. I am running ditherig on both and compared on the internal panel and on an external monitor.

I have the exact same machine (replacement for the first one, which has some problems, such as turning off when you move it quickly, but Dell never asked for it back) set up with 2015 LTSB, and I can actually feel the muscles in my face and especially around my left eye unclench when I look back over to it.

    Minor update: I realized some of the slowness/heaviness was due to animations. Turning them off to match what I had set in 7 made it pretty comparable, so that was nice.

    degen The 22 vs 26/27 isn't solely the thing.. it's also the build # as well in the same series.. I know from my own comp different build #s of the same branch will present differently which I find odd and annoying because there's no consistency, but it's reproducible. Instead of using what 10 serves up (which can be quite old in some cases) you could try downloading directly from Intel's site. Their drivers aren't OEM-locked anymore, so you can actually install them on any comp now and see if it is any better. There is also a setting in the W10 new control panel to turn off the OS force-installing drivers for you.. so I'm thinking if you liked that 22 branch driver, if you disable driver force-update in the settings--if you don't, it will re-install what it thinks you should have, you could manually force-install the 22.* branch on top of what's there now in the device manager. Something I've done many times with audio drivers. Might be worth trying. To make your life a little easier while testing, I suggest setting a system restore point before starting.

    About Netflix, you don't necessarily have to use the HTML5 player.. you can also use the Silverlight player. On 7 I use waterfox classic 2020.01 still because it's quite comfy for me but I have the useragent adjusted for the netflix site so that it will use the silverlight plugin instead of HTML5, looks better. Pale Moon is an old fork and is too slow for me. To use Silverlight, in any Firefox-type browser about:config settings create a new string "general.useragent.override.netflix.com" and for the string value enter "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:41.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/41.0". Leave out the quotes. Of course, also download and install silverlight itself from Microsoft's site.

    What version of ditherig are you using? I was testing with 1.11 and I can see a subtle difference when it is active in 10.

    Laptop machines are susceptible to manufacturing variances.. display panel, firmware bios, etc. cannot say it is the same machine unless you know for sure the parts and version numbers.

      5 days later

      so better 2004 or 19xx? I don't know whether to update ... and I don't know whether to block other automatic updates. advice?

        Sofista90 Go ahead and update if you're already on a Win10 build, 2004 is not worse than 1903. If you're not, then that depends, as the video driver you're using does make a difference as does how you connect to the display.

          11 days later

          • [deleted]

          • Post #147

          The 2004 version gives me the same eye strain as 1903. I still think the Intel UHD driver is the issue here. Uninstall this driver and use basic display driver, my eyes gets back to normal again.

            Did anyone get a forced win update yesterday? did it change anything?

              si_edgey I am using it too and it works pretty well.
              Now I have to find an easy way to test the new updates.
              I could buy a new ssd nvme pci 4.0 and transfer my current setup on it and start using my current ssd sata for trying new W10 versions.
              Do you use any cloning programs to make backups?

                  Lauda89 I do actually, I use Acronis True Image which will clone your SSD so you can easily take it back to the last working state - it works very well.

                  There is also the option to roll back to the last version of Windows for 30 days after you do a major update, but I'd much rather know that everything is exactly as it was before the update..

                  • JTL replied to this.

                      si_edgey but I'd much rather know that everything is exactly as it was before the update..

                      Agreed here

                        [deleted] Agreed, I believe the Intel UHD drivers are to blame - 2004 on an Intel UHD chip doesn't work for me, the latest Intel graphics I can use (from the tests I've been able to do) is the HD 630 with the 2016 drivers.

                          Anybody tried 20H2, or is it tempting fate?

                            diop I have and can use 20H2 in one of my OS partitions, however I am still using 7 as my daily. 20H2 appears the same as 2004, and uses the same drivers. It's kind of interesting how uncontrollable some variables are.. for example, using the dp-to-hdmi dongle I have, I have established that in 20H2 using the 4624 video driver the picture is better with YCbCr in full-range compared to RGB mode, but with Win7 and the 4279 video driver using the same dongle the picture is better with RGB instead of YCbCr.

                            The two that were offered up by MS as choices in W10, 4531 and 4624, I used 4531 for awhile but then switched to 4624 because I found the screen seemed "glassier" compared to 4531. I have no understanding of why these subtle differences exist, but they are present. I am also able to observe subtle differences between different dongles (I have a few) as they use different chips.

                            I have also observed that for the older chips Intel is no longer developing them (except for other OSes like Linux) and any updates for chips like my HD 6000 gpu are only security fixes. All their driver work is only for the latest chips on separate branches.

                            • diop replied to this.
                                9 days later

                                Sunspark I tried updating my good 8.1 machine to 20H2.

                                I upgraded the existing 8.1 OS instead of a clean install. My understanding was I might be able to use the existing W8 driver on a W10 install (it worked for a W7 driver on a separate machine some time ago).

                                W10 upgraded just fine, unfortunately I kept getting 'your system does not meet the minimum requirements' when trying to run the W8 driver setup. I also tried to change compatibility options but it didn't make a difference. Perhaps MS have made it more difficult to install legacy drivers now, or I was just unlucky.

                                  I have an update too.
                                  So, like i said months ago i wasn't able to use W10 2004 on my desktop PC: AMD 480 + Alienware 1080P TN 240hz 8 bit (6 + FRC). I tried to push myself one entire weekend with gaming but my brain/eyes weren't able to adapt. Instead, I developed a lot of nausea, dizziness and my neck was "stuck".
                                  Last week i used the notebook of my father for 45 minutes and when i stand up i felt the dizziness, nasua and also pain on my neck. So, i checked the OS version and it was updated to W10 2004!! I used that notebook with zero issue for 3 years and now i can't.
                                  The "funny" things is that the only common part of these two devices is the OS. I don't remember the name of the notebook but it has Intel HD 610 + 720P TN 60hz monitor.
                                  Now i want to try to update that notebook to W10 20H2 and try an old version of intel driver and let's see if it became usable again.
                                  That notebook use PWM because i checked the screen with the camera of my iPhone X and i can see big vertical lines moving from right to left. But to be honest i don't think the PWM is the problem because i assume that it was there also before the update.

                                  We should create two partitions on the same device, one bad and one good and send that notebook to a laboratory and try do finds the difference. Someone like "RTINGS.COM" or "TFTCENTRAL" should be able to find what's the difference..

                                    Lauda89 We should create two partitions on the same device, one bad and one good and send that notebook to a laboratory and try do finds the difference. Someone like "RTINGS.COM" or "TFTCENTRAL" should be able to find what's the difference..

                                    IIRC there was a huge thread on Intel forums and somebody actually had two identical laptops, one in a usable state with older driver and one in an unusable state with a modern driver. It was shipped to Intel for testing and the conclusions were there were no measurable differences between both laptops. They closed the thread and nothing happened since.

                                    It would be trivial for a gfx dev to explain if dithering is enabled by default on a driver/output of a device. The entire signal chain should be documented. Also release notes for each driver revision. I guess you'd have to be a beta tester and/or developer to get that information in the first place.

                                        Lauda89 The "funny" things is that the only common part of these two devices is the OS. I don't remember the name of the notebook but it has Intel HD 610 + 720P TN 60hz monitor.

                                        That's interesting, and your symptoms seem very similar to mine, in terms of nausea, dizziness and a painful neck. I am using Windows 10 2004 all day long though on my laptop (with Intel HD630 - can't use the UHD ones). For me, it's now entirely the Intel graphics drivers that are to blame.

                                        Try this driver to see if it helps:

                                        https://drivers.softpedia.com/get/GRAPHICS-BOARD/INTEL/Intel-HD-Graphics-620-Driver-2120164475-for-Windows-10-64-bit.shtml

                                        diop It would be trivial for a gfx dev to explain if dithering is enabled by default on a driver/output of a device.

                                        So true, and I think we need to start thinking of this condition as though it were a disability, which is just as valid as something like epilepsy and should be treated as such by developers. I actually think so many people in this forum are struggling with this health issue that there's a degree of apathy when it comes to spending more time in front of screens, making a fuss and finding a solution.

                                        I do include myself in that, although I have spoken at length to Intel, Nvidia, Microsoft, Apple and many others over the years. I'm going to start pestering Intel again.

                                              si_edgey Are you sure that is only the intel driver the problem? Did you try to use that intel version driver in another W10 version?
                                              Because when i triyed the 2004 on my desktop PC i tried to use many driver version (AMD GPU) from 2020 to 2017, display port or HDMI but i didn't fine any releaf.
                                              Right now i am using the 1903 with AMD driver from 2020 and i am fine. So the same GPU Driver is ok on the 1903 and not ok on the 2004 at least for me on AMD GPU.
                                              I will try to install that driver and I'll give you a feedback 🙂

                                                  Lauda89 Are you sure that is only the intel driver the problem? Did you try to use that intel version driver in another W10 version?

                                                  Haha you can never be sure in this game. But it works 100% for me - 6 months of use with the old Intel driver for many hours per day and no headaches or migraines.

                                                  If I switch to a driver from 2018 I feel dizzy and sick and switch to a 2020 driver and I can't focus on anything - if I used it for 30 minutes I'm sure it would trigger a migraine. But for some reason the 2016 driver is like looking at paper for me. All of which implies that my issue is caused entirely by the Intel driver when using Windows v2004.

                                                  Lauda89 Right now i am using the 1903 with AMD driver from 2020 and i am fine. So the same GPU Driver is ok on the 1903 and not ok on the 2004 at least for me on AMD GPU.

                                                  That's interesting, but I'm certain that it is always either a) the gpu driver that is responsible or b) some kind of scan-out hardware on the output if you're using a laptop. When I got through to the graphics tech guys at Microsoft they said:

                                                  "Everyone I’ve asked says that there’s nothing Windows does at a software level for temporal dithering so that would imply the problem is at the hardware level." (this was when using the MS basic display adapter and still having problems)

                                                  "one person I talked to said that some laptops claim to have higher bit depth than they really do and attempt to compensate using temporal dithering at the scan-out in hardware. Which would explain why it happens on those devices even with the basic display adapter."

                                                  "I’ve asked in the Graphics team, Windows doesn’t do any temporal dithering in software."

                                                        si_edgey So true, and I think we need to start thinking of this condition as though it were a disability, which is just as valid as something like epilepsy and should be treated as such by developers.

                                                        Agreed. We know that dithering causes flicker, which the patents we've found suggest is 15hz. If I switched this monitor to 24hz now it would floor me within seconds, I dread to think what 15hz would be like.

                                                        si_edgey That's interesting, but I'm certain that it is always either a) the gpu driver that is responsible or b) some kind of scan-out hardware on the output if you're using a laptop. When I got through to the graphics tech guys at Microsoft they said:

                                                        "Everyone I’ve asked says that there’s nothing Windows does at a software level for temporal dithering so that would imply the problem is at the hardware level." (this was when using the MS basic display adapter and still having problems)

                                                        I'm starting to believe that most devices post-W10 have dithering 'baked in' at the hardware level. This is why we're finding it so hard to use devices. In fact one test I would suggest everybody does on a new device is; Connect it to a known good monitor, enter the BIOS and go through the menu options or just stare at it for 15 minutes. It should become clear if something is 'off' with the output in that timeframe. So we have two issues, really, the Driver used by the OS and the actual output of the device itself.

                                                        I'm going to give 20H2 another try today, after some googling there should be a way for my 2012 Intel driver to install. Hope it works.

                                                              dev