I don’t know anyone pointed out this before, but neck muscles are directly related with eyes. I had terrible times with my eyes, eye saw lots of mds. Until a pt realised my neck is so stiff. Even if you slept in a wrong position, you might have crazy symptoms due to neck muscle tension and this is not something with go with heat it needs proper pt. I was having crazy symptoms with my eyes until I started pt for my neck. Now it gets better slowly but no more light sensitivity. Trapezius, sternocleidomastoid, splenius-capitis muscles etc. All related with eyes. I wish you fast recovery...

Check your Neck Muscles

AGI

I observed that too. In the past, after specific exercises in the gym lifting weights, I got weird neck tension and, associated with that, eyestrain. However, most times for me it is the opposite. One of my first symptoms when I use a "bad" device is immediate onset of neck tension. So, yeah, neck issues may destabilize vision, but eyestrain can cause neck pain too. At least, that's my experience and I noticed that people who do not suffer of eyestrain to my extent can't really get what I mean. I know many of you do.

In any case, can you say more about how you have been treating your neck problems? What is pt, physiotherapy? Thanks.

kammerer

I've also wrote about it in https://ledstrain.org/d/755-taking-action/12 .
It could be also linked to jaw problems and of course inproper sleeping and stress.

AGI In any case, can you say more about how you have been treating your neck problems? What is pt, physiotherapy?

Sunspark

I am someone who suffers with these muscle problems. I would suggest you also look at your feet. If you have flat feet or a morton's toe, your gait is off which then, like a chain of dominoes, goes all the way to the top. Feet problems affect the knees which then affect the lower back which then affects the neck which then affects the jaw which then affects the eye muscles.

I was going to get orthotics, but then the virus struck our world.

kammerer

Sunspark Indeed I have flat feets and some knee problems

AGI

I agree that everything is interconnected in our body. Yet, if only "perfect" people could use modern electronics without problems, there would be barely no one capable of using nowadays's devices, which is clearly not the case.

I have been suffering from sinusitis forever. The past two years I had several attacks in the place where I relocated, mostly because I can't stand AC and passing from swamp climate outdoors to chilly and dry indoors. Instead in 2020 I have been great so far. My eye strain has not faded, though.
I bought a mouth guard 1,5 years ago and have not noticed any improvement to my eye condition.
I have been under acupuncture treatment for nearly two years. I do not even know why I keep doing it.
I have been doing eye exercises with Brock string and else. I have visited countless ophthalmologists and one orthoptist in the last 15 months. They have no clue. A week ago I bought glasses with tinted lenses, corrected my 0.5 astigmatism on the left eye, put a blue filter. Top quality lenses. Glasses give me inflammation and make me feel dizzy, I guess because of the rose tint.
Although I did not go ask them, I have people affected by some degree of strabismus around at work, their condition is pretty evident. They do not seem to have any issue with newer Macs everyone on this forum complains about.

It is better to be in the best health state possible, but if that were the necessary condition to use modern devices, high tech companies will all go bankrupted.
I have thrown a lot of money at solving my issues. Unfortunately, although I do not consider them charlatans, a lot of the specialists I met do not have the modesty and intellectual honesty to admit that they cannot help and are clueless.
I think more and more that this is a neurological issue. Not that neurologists have a better clue, sadly.

Peter

Canerguler I am doing somatics training for some years now (Alexander Technique/Feldenkrais) and i can say that my body muscle tension level is quite good (including the neck). However when in front of a bad device i can actually feel the rapid increase in the tension starting from my eyes. In my case the stimulus (the display) is increasing my neck tension. If there is no such stimulus my neck tension is not increasing.

AGI

This is not probably the most suited thread, but here is an example of what I meant above.

I have been decently well for some time. My old neutral glasses with anti-reflective coating (ARC) are moderately helping with offensive overhead lighting and Macs. My brand-new glasses with 0.5 astigmatism correction, ARC, rose tint and blue-light filter make me dizzy instead, as I posted elsewhere. I accepted I threw 400 bucks down the drain and moved on.
Yesterday I decided that I should give a go to writing on my 24" iMac after ten 10 years on 13-14" laptops. I installed TexShop on the iMac. I estimate I put together 10 minutes of reading and writing in the whole day. Immediately, my neck and the back of my eyes became painful. I needed to look away every few seconds. I left work and went swim to relax my neck and eyes. The symptoms persisted. I went to bed and woke up in the same conditions this morning. My neck is under a lot of tension and my eyes are still sore, even if I use my MacBook Air. I had never used TexShop on my iMac so it is not a rigorous comparison, but the version I installed on the iMac is 4.44 and the one I run without problems on my MacBook Air is 4.04 (I never updated it for the fear of getting a visual downgrade!). Now you tell me, is it my neck affecting my eyes or a program affecting my neck and eyes?

ryans

Could you talk more about the therapy you do for your neck?

My vision therapist has commented numerous time on my neck and how it is likely impacting my vision.

Peter

ryans I would also be very interested in this. I believe though that neck tension is the response to what the display does to our organism, it is not the cause or stimulus.
My neck muscles are really soft and my posture is also very "good" on doctor terms. However in front of a bad display i can feel my neck getting really tensed. It is like my braid sends a message to the body to respond to the bad stimulus. The neck and face are the first bodily areas that respond to stimulus, either external (eg bad display) or internal (thoughts).

diop

Peter I would also be very interested in this. I believe though that neck tension is the response to what the display does to our organism, it is not the cause or stimulus.
My neck muscles are really soft and my posture is also very "good" on doctor terms. However in front of a bad display i can feel my neck getting really tensed. It is like my braid sends a message to the body to respond to the bad stimulus. The neck and face are the first bodily areas that respond to stimulus, either external (eg bad display) or internal (thoughts).

I agree, this could be why the symptoms vary so much from person to person as everybody's wiring/nervous system is slightly different. It's probably a nervous response to the technology, but the technology is the stimulus all the same. No different to somebody with epilepsy suffering a seizure, there is still in that case a measurable trigger to avoid further seizures (if photosensitive at least).

So presumably what we are experiencing is certainly not causing seizures en masse as there would have been a huge public outcry by now, however the symptoms IMO are just within an acceptable threshold.

I still find it crazy that this is all for the sake of some extra colors (which the human eye can't even perceive anyway!)

bkdo

I recently came across something interesting - has anyone heard of tech neck? My understanding is that it’s essentially a repetitive stress injury caused by bending your head downwards to look at phones, tablets, etc.

I never really thought about it before, but I have my head tilted down a lot, whether it’s when I’m on my phone, at my computer, in bed on an iPad, etc, and I’m wondering if this may be contributing to flicker sensitivity at all. Anyone ever experience anything similar?

I’m going to make a conscious effort to keep my neck straight while using those devices & try some neck exercises to see if there’s any difference.

Here’s an article with some more info -

https://www.everydayhealth.com/wellness/how-to-beat-tech-neck-and-why-its-so-bad-for-your-health/

ryans

bkdo I've heard from several people now with "our" symptoms that they got significant relief by visiting a chiropractor for their neck. This is an excellent blog where the person got relief from a NUCCA chiropractor...after the first visit, he no longer needed prism glasses. He has other great blog posts such as this one.

Like me, he thought chiropractors were quacks and never thought his neck was cause of this symptoms. I am in some Binocular Vision Dysfunction groups, too, and some people there are seeing chiropractors to try to help.

I wouldn't let any chiropractor "adjust" my neck, but only one like a NUCCA chiropractor who specializes in the upper cervical region.

This is a good quote:

Upon being evaluated by Dr. Debby, it was determined that I had both a vertical and horizontal misalignment of my eyes and I was promptly prescribed a pair of prism glasses. The glasses helped alleviate some of my symptoms, although a lot of them persisted. Dr. Debby suspected an underlying neck condition and urged me to have my neck checked. I met a chiropractor who specialized in the upper neck, who confirmed I had a severe neck misalignment. A month after being under chiropractic care and having my neck back in proper alignment, my eyes were reevaluated. It was determined that my vertical misalignment had resolved and all I had left was the smallest amount of horizontal misalignment possible. There was a direct correlation between the misalignment of my neck and the misalignment of my eyes.

bkdo

ryans

Yeah, I'm a little wary of chiropractors, but I'm definitely going to look into finding someone who can look at my neck. Have any of the people in your BVD group experienced relief from seeing chiropractors?

Dominic

Inspired by the blog mentioned by @ryans yesterday I went to a chiropractor for the first session. Unfortunately it was not a NUCCA member as it's impossible to find one in my country. For hours following the session I experienced some of symptoms I usually get from screens (even if I didn't use any device) like pain around my eyes and dizziness. After 10 minutes of session I was so tired I had to have a nap.
I measured my heterophoria before and after chiropractic, but nothing has changed.
It also didn't bring relief from my symptoms, however I consider continuing this kind of treatment as the symptoms I got right after the session gives me a hint that my problem may be somehow related and I would be foolish if I didn't give it a try for a month or two.

ryans

Dominic Very interesting! I hope it helps you. If you keep reading that blog, it took months to get real big improvements. The fact is it causing the same symptoms could be a good thing...it's a similar story with vision therapy. Hoping this cures you!

Marionberry998

Dominic Please, never let chiropractors touch your neck again. Your symptoms became worse after the session because the chiropractor made your neck become worse.

Believe me, I do know what I'm saying. I've been struggling with my neck problem for 7 years, and I've tried a lot of things. Chiropractic is the worst you can do to your health. I want to write a good post here about this problem, in order it to be displayed clearly.

But now briefly: Deep in your neck, you have suboccipital muscles that are in spasm. (And yes, they are "very connected" with eyes). When someone does something with your neck, these muscles react like seatbelts in a car: they react to the stress and become more tense for safety reasons. The bad thing is they cannot relax by themselves after stress.

Sunspark

I wouldn't recommend letting a chiropractor touch your neck. I have a neck injury from years ago caused by one. Maybe a nucca one is different, but regular garden variety ones are no bueno.

But yes, tech neck is real and I'm pretty sure at least 2 of my visual migraines were triggered by having my neck in a bad posture, suspicion that this is the case is because last time among other things I started massaging the base of my skull while the migraine was going on, and then it stopped. Implication there is blood flow/nerve pinch issue.

Quad43

I thought the same in terms of triggers. Had a series of osteopath appointments and there was a vast improvement in eye/head pressure. It needs consistent work though every single week.

ryans

Marionberry998 I understand they can be dangerous in some cases. Have you seen this article? There are
special chiropractors, like NUCCA, that specialize in the neck and are more gentle than typical "adjustments".

If someone wanted to get their neck fixed, do you have any recommendation of not a chiropractor? An osteopath?

Dominic

Marionberry998 Very interesting. What is alternative treatment then?
Could you please describe your symptoms?

ryans

Dominic Assuming a chiropractor actually did damage to your neck, I think, it still proves your condition can be fixed with neck treatment.

I am not convinced a chiropractor actually did damage, though, when doing vision therapy exercises, it is normal to feel symptoms after doing lots of the exercises. Could be something similar is happening here, too.

Marionberry998

Dominic Hello again. Sorry for not replying for so long. You can check information here and here.

I use to have more symptoms than people describe here, because my situation was severe, but i go better with that treatment. I tried a lot of different methods (really a lot), I even got a surgery on my neck (!). So, as I said I know what I'm saying. If you want you can even call me via video chat, so I can prove everything I said or tell more about these methods. My email i.chaykovskiy@gmail.com