I don’t think slight variance in greater max brightness that would make issues with eye strain any worse.
Rrumpty
- 6 Aug
- Joined Sep 1, 2021
I hope so too. One thing to check on your is the max brightness - in my environment I can compensate for the lack of super high brightness - but this model isn’t super bright. Not sure about the one you are looking at.
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Clokwork So I got the new display - Eizo Flexscan EV2785 and there’s a lot of good news, and a bit of bad news.
What kind of screens cause me discomfort? A bit hard to say - I’m not sure what tech the LG I mentioned above has but I think one of my biggest issues was with brightness and the LG was an extremely bright monitor. It also felt like the whites of the monitor were always piercing my eyes.
The good news is that the display visual quality itself is really nice. It feels even, not blown out, or too dark. Combined with the ambient light sensor it’s really quite nice. It definitely feels more pleasant on the eyes overall - could be placebo. I really like that I don’t need to make too many brightness adjustments manually, and that the light sensor can just take care of what I need to.
What are the downsides - well for one - I was hoping that by switching to this display I’d see a reduction in some of the issues I had with contrasting paragraphs of text - where I see a ghost in the contrast. So far that’s not the case, and I think I may need to lower the contrast to make it easier on my eyes. Is this a shortcoming of the monitor? No - I think it means there’s something wrong with my sensitivity and vision that’s not triggered by devices alone.
The other thing is that this display uses a proprietary protocol for sending brightness controls from software to the hardware. That means that you can’t use something like MonitorControl to adjust the brightness levels by keyboard directly - although you can use MonitorControl software based dimming or Iris software based dimming.
Overall it’s very nice, but so far not going to be the difference between being abnormal and 100% normal.
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This is my story, experience and things i’ve tried. I’m not super technical, and so I don’t have recommendations for monitors or device setups specifically. I am not a doctor, and this does not constitute medical advice - but I hope to share my story and experiences in hopes of serving as stepping stone for someone going through a similar situation.
I have been dealing with this for about 2 years, on and off, I have a history of migraine with aura, historically have great vision especially long distance, but have also always been sensitive to light. About 2 years ago, I was experiencing visual snow, and after images, and noticed something weird when using a monitor for work - when I’d scroll an article on screen would leave a ghost image of the text.
My issues got worse after a migraine from hell - long story, that left me with dizzyness and significant eye pain when using screens and just wouldn't go away. Since then I’ve tried a variety of stuff, done a ton of research, and am back to being able to work from home. Am I back to normal? No - I’d say 80% right now, but I’m managing. I still get eye strain easily, and have trouble reading for long periods of time.
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FACTORS I'VE INVESTIGATEDDry eye
How to test: see an optometrist or dry eye clinic.
Why is this worth considering: LED bulbs can potentially exacerbate already dry eyes - in my case I have mild dry eye in the same eye that’s worsened
What can you do: there are a few medical options such as natural eye drops (if you do use these be careful they became habit forming for me)
Another hack is to force yourself to yawn 3-4 times which will cause your eyes to tear - when i’ve done this it seems to help with reducing the strain in the eyes, and to relax muscles of the face
Migraine: There are different types of migraine, such as vestibular (generally feeling dizzy) which can be brought about by motion, and potentially light flicker. I recommend the audiobook Migraine by Oliver Sacks as a way to learn a bit more
- What can you do?
- For vestibular migraine you can do vestibular physio to help with dizzyness / nauseous need - I think it helped a lot in my case (check out epleys maneuver). They also recommend 75hz+ monitors for those with issues with motion sickness / dizziness (I haven’t tried this though)
- What about for general migraine? - there are medications you can take (many are heavy duty and aren’t to be considered lightly), you can also get special migraine glasses like theraspecs, or use green light migraine therapy) - I tried a bunch of migraine medications and it didn’t work out for me but might be something to consider.
Light Sensitivity / Sensitivity to Contrast: I am very light sensitive, and also have high sensitivity to high and low contrast when in the same field of view. Screens draw my eyes like a moth to a flame.
What can you do?
I explored supplements like omega 3, lutein and zeaxanthin and still take them today, i’m not sure if they helped things for sure, but it’s possible.
I try and avoid driving at night (I tried to find night driving glasses which do help, but reduce visibility making driving more dangerous)
Consider using apps like MonitorControl and Monitarian (windows) to have quick access to brightness controls when it’s too much
You can also use the app Gamma Control and Iris to control blue light levels and brightness too - be careful with these as too little contrast may worsen eye strain
You can also try modifying your color profile on your monitor to see if it helps with contrast and strain (some folks recommend sRGB)
Reduce contrast between monitor and surrounding area: BenQ screenbar can help to raise surrounding brightness of task area, as well as ambient backlighting for the monitor (make sure it’s flicker free - not the easiest to find), and use even lighting in the room whether overhead or standing lamps
it might be worth looking into visual stress - it wasn’t a factor for me but may help you
Vision issues
I have very mild astigmatism, and have convergence insufficiency, and binocular vision disfunction. I have great vision otherwise.
What can you do:
Rule out anything serious by seeing an optometrist, and if needed an ophthalmologist / neurologist
Consider getting a test from a vision therapy clinic - be careful here too - the treatment can be very expensive - but I recommend exploring it to see if there’s something there. Ask how many sessions it typically takes and cost per session. I had to stop my vision therapy, but I did notice that my ability to complete vision therapy tasks improved over time - not sure whether this had a significant effect or not.
Prism lenses, Neurolens, vision therapy
Environmental Factors: When I first started noticing my issues, I was working at a screen in a dark corner of a room, with a window beside that resulted in extreme contrast.
What can you do?
Get a high quality pair of polarized sunglasses to wear outside in bright environments to reduce eyestrain outside the home
Improve the lighting in your home, especially in the office to ensure adequate (300-500lux) even light
Use sheer curtains and blinds to control light and spread the light evenly
Be careful of the extremes - extreme brightness or very dim environments which might make focusing difficult
On LEDs: I believe I’m very sensitive to LED flicker especially combined with the high brightness that comes along with LEDs in a concentrated point. LED strips, and LED arrays are the most troublesome for me, with monitors being less problematic, and projectors being the least bad of the bunch.
What can you do?
I recommend the waveform lighting bulbs which are almost entirely flicker free, which I've tested and have found to be much higher quality than Phillips bulbs
A neurologist recommended 75hz+ monitors but I’m not sure if that would address my issues specifically with light
On eye strain in general: It’s obvious probably to many of you that eye strain is the outcome of some other factors - that being said - here’s what I do to keep it manageable
Taking breaks every 30mins of computer usage, and combining that with a few mins of exercise (stair climbing, walking around the house - to get blood circulating)
20/20/20 rule of course - look at 20ft, for 20s every 20mins
Using desktop computer over a mobile phone (if you notice issues worsened at near like I did - might be worth following up with optometrist)
Forcing yawning to get the eyes to tear and the face muscles to relax
Using eye drops when necessary (preservative free)
Limiting screen time on wake-up, and before bed
Taking a warm shower upon waking up, and getting outside for a walk early on to get things warmed up and moving
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WHO CAN HELPOptometrist: For me, finding a great optometrist was the key to getting the ball rolling, and I left my previous optometrist when things weren’t going anywhere. A good optometrist can cover the 80% of what an ophthalmologist can do, and depending on where you are can be much more accessible
Ophthalmologist / Neuro-Opthalmologist / Neurologist: These health professionals can be a huge help with diagnosis of conditions like migraine, and can prescribe medication such as eye drops / migraine meds. They can be extremely valuable to rule out known diseases of the eye and brain, but aren’t super helpful in my experience with functional issues like we are experiencing
Vision Therapist / Neuro Optometrist: Neuro optometry is a specialization of optometry that is sort of between optometry and neurology. They aren’t true doctors, but can investigate functional issues of the eyes - it’s important to find a good one if possible because the quality of their tests and care will be instrumental in evaluating vision therapy progress down the road. I saw a vision therapist and ultimately had to stop because of side effects that prevented me from working. They often recommend prism glasses to help the eyes focus together.
Physiotherapist: I have mild issues with my neck, and generally bad neck/head posture, but was referred to a vestibular physiotherapist by my neurologist. The vestibular physio therapist I saw focused on trying to strengthen the neck muscles and increase blood flow to the brain:
How they can help:
- Epleys manoeuvre for vestibular issues (benign proximal vertigo)
- Vestibular physio exercises / vision exercises
- Hot packing the neck to relax muscles and increase blood flow
Ergonomist: Specializes in ergonomic set up of the workplace. Can help with improving posture/ setup to lessen long term issues of the body.
How they can help:
Requesting an ergonomic assessment from your workplace can potentially help to remove some of the physical strain of working at a screen for long periods of time
May or may not be able to help with lighting
Psychologists / Therapists: They can help if you have underlying anxiety. Stress exacerbated my problems, and although not the root of the problem, definitely made issues with eye strain worse.
Lighting Domain Consultants: Lighting ergonomic specialists and testers like Der Lichtpeter can be great to help understand what’s happening with lighting flicker.
When I asked him why is it that light flicker is so problematic to us, he provided the following amazing insight:
“imagine yourself in a discotheque only with the stroboscopic light on: You lose orientation, become dizzy and might feel sick. This is what happens directly. Apart from that, subconsciously, the alarming system in your brain is always active, which causes stress. The reason is simple: Fast light changes - instictively from millions of years of development - might give the system the idea this could be an archaeopteryx or a rock or anything else above your head threatening you.”
His second point is that by being in exposed to that flicker, it’s putting us in a fight/flight mode, and causing heightened stress. Really interesting stuff!Environmental Psychologists: Although not easily accessible, environmental psychologists understand the effects of light on the human body - such as Arnold Wilkins and Jennifer Veitch. I plan on reaching out to them at some point, but haven't gotten around to it.
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RESOURCESVision Snow Initiative https://www.visualsnowinitiative.org/
Arnold Wilkins Visual Stress https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBOzv9HgoWM
Der Lichtpeter’s page on light flicker https://www.derlichtpeter.de/en/light-flicker/
Relationship between photosensitivity in post-concussion patients, and aerobic exercise https://journals.lww.com/acsm-csmr/Fulltext/2018/08000/Exercise_is_Medicine_for_Concussion.5.aspx
Lighting flicker and potential side effects - Arnold Wilkins & Jennifer Veitch https://ece.northeastern.edu/groups/power/lehman/Publications/Pub2010/2010_9_Wilkins.pdf
The End of Flicker https://medium.com/@yeutterg/the-end-of-flicker-24f6169c5c7f
Ambient Backlighting May Ease Eye Strain at Night - ambient-backlight-displays-may-ease-eye-strain-at-night
Blurbusters https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?t=8446
Thanks for giving this, and hope that it can be of some use to you!
If there are resources you've found in your travels - I'd love to know about them, or if there's any suggestions you have. Cheers!
Clokwork - I just ordered mine - are there any tests I can do / record and share to help with comparing?
I don’t actually know if I’ll be able to deal with the Apple display to be frank. It could be a complete disaster. On paper the Eizo is much better - and from my experience seeing the higher end Eizo’s in person they are such better quality displays than other competitors like Dell / LG.
It does seem like of the two the Eizo is the clear winner - so I should just buy that, I guess I’m just optimistic that the panel in the new Apple Cinema display will be better than my current LG - which is just awful.
Talking through this though, I think I’ll get the Eizo and go from there.
Thanks for the idea.
Seconding your comment about artificial tears - my ophthalmologist recommended using them heavily and although they aren’t supposed to build a dependency - in my case they did. Eyes ended up very scratchy all the time, and I think my eyes stopped tearing properly.
My point isn’t to distrust doctors, but to be careful and watch for if things improve or worsen.
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Hey Ryans
We are in a similar situation - low quality high flicker pot lights.
+1 To the other commenters recommendation.
Get high quality flicker free LED bulbs and put them in the boob light fixtures overhead.
Then get some cheap “torchier standing lamps” and put high quality bulbs in those. Torchier light fixtures are great in rentals because they can cast a wide area of light upward.
Not a ton you can do about the pot lights - it might be possible to replace them with something higher quality in the same footprint - alternatively you could ask your landlord to install and you could pay for better ones - not necessarily a good deal for you, but could be worth considering.
One way to see how bad the flicker is on the pot lights it to use slo-mo video recording on your phone - if it supports it and you can see the flicker rate and severity. Cheers!
Clokwork !!!!
I’m in the same boat! I’ve been holding off buying the Flexscan 2785 and i’m debating whether to get this or the new Studio Display!!! I’ve been looking at 120hz monitors for a long time - but 4k 120hz isn’t easy to find, and the monitors that do support it - I question the visual quality of the picture.
It’s tough - I want to pull the trigger on the Eizo and see if helps with my symptoms - I currently use an LG UL27850 and it’s like poison to my eyes. The screen shimmers, leaves after image smear, and also has a ridiculously bright minimum brightness.
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Was hoping the new display would be 120hz - I get the hardware bandwidth limitations - but would have been awesome to see if it helped reduce eye strain.
I wonder if Truetone combined with ambient light sensing would help us folks.
I’m tempted to buy one and return if I don’t see an improvement.
Either that or buy the Eizo Flexscan 2785 which has the same refresh rate but 4k, and a potentially higher quality display.
+1 to the waveform bulbs, they are really fantastic. I previously tried phillips flicker free - all shit. All flickered at somewhere between 60-120hz.
Hi Mike - what do you mean by a lot of training?
The dynamic hz makes sense, personally i’m wondering if that dynamic hz would change the amount of eye strain.
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Hi folks,
The new iPhone 13 Pro was just announced and it has a Pro Motion 120Hz dynamic refresh display. I’m sharing here because i’m wondering if that increase in hz would help to reduce eye strain? Also - apparently it’s dynamic hz - I’m not sure how that would work but am interested - i wonder if it would make symptoms better or worse than 60hz.
Anyone have experience with the Pro Motion iPad?
I have an iPhone 8, and find of all my devices: tv, laptop, desktop computer it’s the most sickness inducing.
Cheers!
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Hi I recently stumbled upon 2 which I quite like - both from Phillips and available at Walmart.
UPDATE: KEEPING COMMENT FOR POSTERITY - NO LONGER RECOMMEND - Bulbs have Significant flicker.
They sell them in 60w, and 100w, warm glow 2700k and daylight 5000k. They are about $10.
Ive tested these with slow-mo, and they don't flicker at full brightness - haven't tested dimmed. They both have 90 CRI which is quite good given the price.